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Heartbreak: Where bad breeding meets poor judgment
By Gina Spadafori
June 29, 2010
Hope you haven’t missed me much. I’m always behind the scenes, but I’m in the last quarter-mile of the marathon that is a book project. I’ll be back next week, and I’ve been piling up ideas for posts I haven’t had time to write.
In the meantime, the e-mail keeps coming in. This one is the kind I hate the most:
I need help very badly with my puppy.
I was wondering if you could help me with my 5 month rotti….she has really bad hip displasa and has alot of trouble waking now. I have had her to a surgeon that has told me that it will cost 12,000.00 for the both hips to be replaced and if I don’t do the replacement I may have to put her down. I was hoping that you could do the operation costs in your class at a small fee as I also just lost my job and really don’t want to put her down. Can you help.I am even willing to have the surgeon set up a account at the vet hospital for donations so you know this is real. Please can you help my puppy.
Yes, I wrote her back, explaining that we’re not a veterinary practice, to check for what recourse she has in her contract with the seller (I’m guessing “none” (careless or clueless breeder) to “we’ll kill him and give you another” (puppy-mill retail outlet, a/k/a pet store). Suggested IMOM and so on.
But the fact remains: The time to realize you cannot afford to replace the hips on a dog so poorly breed that he is suffering at 5 months of age is BEFORE you buy a puppy. By researching the breed and the breeders, and by getting certifications of OFA “good” or “excellent” hips along with acceptable PennHIP scores on the parents — and their parents, and so on.
The information is out there, and it’s so easy to find. I feel sorry for this woman, I really do, but why do I suspect she put more research into getting a cell phone than a family companion? And how can we get this message through so people stop supporting the kind of sellers she got this poor puppy from? How many other Rotties have these people sold, just as bad or even worse?
Damn it, woman, I am truly sorry, but you did this to yourself. You and your dog are both suffering because of your poor decision. And because you supported this dog’s seller with your money, chances are his mother will soon be pregnant again, likely to the same convenient dog who was his father. Another litter of misery will be on the way, thanks to you.
Chances are, also, that your own puppy will not be suffering for long, though, because no one can pick up the tab for your dog’s bad breeder and your bad judgment. Even if a veterinarian were to do the procedures “at cost” the cost of the surgical steel is more than you can afford.Your dog will be likely paying the price for your decision to support his crappy breeder with his life or with a lifetime of suffering, and honestly, if he’s this bad this young please don’t choose the second option if you cannot have him treated.
Folks! Don’t support puppy-sellers who produce such misery. If no one buys their puppies, they’ll find some other way to make some ready cash. Like starting up a meth lab — if they don’t have one already.
In the market for a pet? Learn from this woman’s experience. While you cannot guarantee a defect-free pet — hell, you cannot guarantee a defect-free you, and I write that as a person with asthma, allergies and a couple more “congenital defects” including the inability to carry a tune in a bucket — you CAN improve the odds of getting a healthy, well-mannered family pet by dealing with people who test their dogs for what can be tested for, socialize the puppies and stand behind their dogs for life.
Do your homework. Because if you don’t, you’ll pay in money (if you can afford it, and most of us can’t), in suffering (for you and the dog) and in regret that you’ve helped keep the misery going by making it profitable for a breeder who doesn’t know enough or care enough to try to prevent such outcomes.
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Not to be snarky, but someone whose capacity to judge and understand the information before her prompted her to ask a pet writer to perform cut-rate orthopedic surgery is unlikely to hit the critical points when researching a puppy purchase.
I don’t know how to fix that, except way before the point, with our educational system.
I will quibble with the idea that a pet owner needs to be prepared to part with >$10K in the event the animal needs that level of veterinary intervention to live.
One could run up the same bill if, say the dog was injured in a car wreck while riding in a crate in the back.
If we held everyone to that standard, very few people could enjoy the company of an animal.
Comment by H. Houlahan — June 29, 2010 @ 8:08 am
I will quibble with the idea that a pet owner needs to be prepared to part with >$10K in the event the animal needs that level of veterinary intervention to live.
One could run up the same bill if, say the dog was injured in a car wreck while riding in a crate in the back.
If we held everyone to that standard, very few people could enjoy the company of an animal.
Comment by H. Houlahan — June 29, 2010
An accident is an accident. This wasn’t an accident. Bad hips on a puppy-mill or idiot-bred Rottie is about as close as it gets to a sure thing.
As for covering the catastrophes life sometimes deals us, we’ve covered that ground before in discussions here.
My own way is high-deductible, pet-health insurance coverage for big ticket items and a savings account for anything less, plus budgeting for solid preventive care regimen, while keeping everyone lean, fit and fed the best diet I can provide them.
I’m spending far less per year for high-deductible insurance and veterinary care for four dogs than that double-hip replacement costs for one. And I’m not using “cheap” veterinarians, by any means.
I am not one of those meanies who think poor people don’t deserve pets. But I do think everyone should make an effort to make intelligent choices that will minimize their unnecessary expenses and cover a certain degree of life’s uncertainties if at all possible.
Maybe you’re right, though. Chances are a lot of people are ill-prepared to make good decisions on any range of choices we all face in our lives.
And of course, life often deals us hands that we are not prepared to handle, and pretending otherwise is a sure invitation for Karma to bite you in the ass.
This woman is in the situation she is in. My hope is that others will learn from her experience.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 29, 2010 @ 8:23 am
Do you know the dog was actually purchased from a breeder?
My best friend adopted a Chow mix pup from the shelter where she worked. Great dog with a super temperament, except it later needed surgery on both hips and both elbows. Not her fault in any way, shape, or form, that the dog needed thousands of dollars worth of work.
It’s one thing to preach buying from responsible breeders, but it’s another to get judgmental after the ship has sailed. It turns people off, which doesn’t do the dogs any good. Quite the opposite, actually.
Comment by Shelly — June 29, 2010 @ 9:34 am
The problem is also that education needs to happen but then what happens when you have an educated puppy person that still can’t find a reputable breeder. Shoot I have been given the shove off at a dog show by a breeder who made it clear that they didn’t have time to talk to me. I have heard from more people about how not nice exhibitors at shows can be. I have heard of emails sent and never answered…. and what about those responsible breeders that rely solely on word of mouth. As breeders we view that as a positive but what about the puppy person who can’t find us. We as responsible breeders can’t really condemn the average puppy person for making a bad decision when we (speaking universally) don’t make ourselves readily available to answer questions and send people in the right direction. I can’t even express how many people I have helped find a puppy because I have the contacts that they don’t have and they don’t even know where to begin.
If we are going to educate people about what to look for in a responsible breeder then responsible breeders also need to step up and take the time to answer questions and help puppy people and honestly not be rude at shows…
just my two cents
Steph
Comment by Stephanie Green — June 29, 2010 @ 9:41 am
I can solve this problem for 50 cents.
There is a place for euthanasia and thinning the herd.
And yes, that’s right: there is a place for putting a dog down. The time for this dog is NOW. Everything is going to die; make your peace with it, however hard it may be.
Yes, this owner is a fool. But the crime was committed by the breeder who did not hip test the sire and dam. And of course this crime was abetted and greenlighted by the registries (such as the AKC) which do not require testing.
Patrick
Comment by PBurns — June 29, 2010 @ 10:08 am
Really Patrick? 50 cents?
Is that the cost of the bullet you would use?
I am guessing that this Rottie owner won’t be shooting her puppy.
But that is certainly an efficient way to take care of a medical problem.
Comment by Mary Mary — June 29, 2010 @ 11:40 am
Here’s what the AVMA has to say on the subject (Page 16):
“When properly used by skilled personnel with well-maintained equipment, physical methods of euthanasia may result in less fear and anxiety and be more rapid, painless, humane, and practical than other forms of euthanasia.
[…]
Some consider physical methods of euthanasia aesthetically displeasing. There are occasions, however, when what is perceived as aesthetic and what is most humane are in conflict.”
Just FYI.
Side note: I had a friend who decided to retire and buy himself a mixed practice in a rural area. He’d worked all his life as a specialist in a urban area, but he and his wife (and kids, now grown and gone) had kept just about everything from dogs and cats to horses, cattle, goats and poultry so he was comfortable treating all sorts of animals. I think he figured it would be interesting and somewhat relaxing, in a James Herriot-like way.
So he is out in the country for a while, and a man brings in a dog with an injury that needs surgery — I no longer remember what the injury was. The man informs him that there was no way he was spending that kind of money, but he doesn’t want the dog to suffer, so he asks my friend to “just put him down.”
My friend sighs, says fine, gets the forms, sign here, do you want cremation, etc. Client says, “How much is all that?” and after informed, he thanks the vet, and he and the dog leave.
A couple minutes later, a gunshot outside. The man back comes in and politely asks the receptionist to call the county to pick up the dog’s remains.
I guess the aesthetics weren’t a problem for him.
Now, a century ago that wouldn’t have even raised an eyebrow. In Albert Payson Terhune’s books, he wrote more than a couple times about the necessity of killing an old dog with a handgun — he describes it as an act of heroic kindness and self-sacrifice, and for the time, it probably was.
Some 25-odd years ago, I visited the Museum of the Dog when it was part of the AKC and in the same building in NYC. The curator took me into the back after hearing that I collected first-edition Terhunes and showed me two pieces from the museum’s collection.
One was a battered typewriter, so well-used the letters were worn off the keys. The other was a revolver, Terhune’s personal one. Thinking that I was holding the gun that killed “Lad: A Dog” and who know who else made me queasy, but it was a different time and place when that gun had been used for that purpose, and I realized that.
Me, I’m thankful I have other options when it comes to relieving my pets of their suffering.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 29, 2010 @ 12:08 pm
Gina, I have no problem with euthanasia. I would not want to see an animal killed via bullet, but I think it’s probably the best way to go if done correctly.
What I was reacting to was my perception of Patrick’s tone.
Your post is not about “should she or shouldn’t she get the surgery.”
The point is that, if she went to a breeder, that she should have done her homework.
But hey, whatever. Just shoot the thing. Life is hard, suck it up. The dog has outlived his utility.
Comment by Mary Mary — June 29, 2010 @ 12:19 pm
I would assume that since Gina saw the e-mail in it’s entirety she knows if the dog came from a breeder or not.
I would agree with Steph about how difficult it can be to find a reputable breeder. Even WITH contacts in dogs you can still get the brush off. When I was looking for a frenchie years ago I got alot of unanswered e-mails and phone calls because I also had an akita in residence which I told them up front. I had one show breeder tell me all GOOD show breeders kept their retired dogs and I wouldn’t find one without spending big bucks.(I was looking for an adult, not a puppy.) We hadn’t discussed cost so I guess I just “sounded” poor to him. I did eventually find a good breeder in another state and even tho I’m not looking for a pup now I think I found my next breeder though her blog. (if I’m lucky)
When looking for a bulldog breeder for my sister I had one tell me that her husband was a JUDGE and that their dogs were fine. They didn’t need to do health testing. Sigh. It took us over a year to find a breeder that did any health testing and stood by their dogs.
When looking for a pug breeder I couldn’t find ONE that did any health testing. Heck I couldn’t even get an answer from the national pug breed club on tests they recommended! They just listed the breeds possible health issues. That’s why we ended up at pug rescue. I refuse to support a breeder not doing the job right for the EXACT reasons you just posted about.
I agree, most people do more research on inanimate things they own than their next family member. But for some I think it is simple ignorance. They don’t KNOW there is such a thing as a good or bad breeder. My sisters fiance was going to buy a bulldog online until we taught him why that was a VERY BAD idea.
But for others it is a money issue. They don’t know paying more in the beginning for a health tested puppy is designed to save them vet bills down the road. Then there are the ones who don’t want to be interviewed by a breeder and told what they can and cannot do with their puppy. “It’s my dog and if I want to breed it or tie it outside than I will dammit!”
We will always be educating people about research before they buy. But remember, you can only lead the horse to water….
Comment by Marie — June 29, 2010 @ 1:03 pm
I would assume that since Gina saw the e-mail in it’s entirety she knows if the dog came from a breeder or not.
Comment by Marie — June 29, 2010
That is the e-mail in its entirety.
I do not know the source of the dog in this case, but I get a couple thousand e-mails a month, and a lot of them are like this one. That’s enough to see some pretty strong trends, especially when it comes to linking sick dogs to careless or clueless breeders or puppy-milling scum.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 29, 2010 @ 1:44 pm
A few thoughts:
1) Have you considered the possibility that this is a scam and that this 5 month puppy with hip displasia doesn’t exist?
2)In the event that this is a real story that is currently happening, how does it help her or her puppy to hear about how stupid she was 3 months ago when she found this puppy and fell in love with it? She can’t go back and correct that error but is now doing the responsible thing by trying to get medical care for her dog. As Calvin and Hobbs once said “there is no problem so bad that guilt can’t make it worse.”
3) If this person does indeed exist, she may be hearing only the worst case scenario. People can get selective hearing when faced with a health crisis. Since this puppy is still growing there may be conservative therapies (diet, exercise, physical therapy etc.) that can help it. She can go back to her veterinarian and ask, what else can I do, short of surgery, to help this dog? Perhaps you could ask your veterinary contributors whether they could discuss some non-surgical options that an owner can use. Medicine isn’t an exact science and it could be that if she started implementing some of these non-surgical strategies now, she might save her dog and herself a lot of heartache.
Comment by Jan — June 29, 2010 @ 3:48 pm
1) Yes, it could be a scam, and so could every single one of the many, many similar requests we get each day.
2) I didn’t respond to her by telling her she made a mistake. I offered her suggestions. What I am hoping in posting this here is that someone else will learn from her experience.
3) Again, I offered suggestions to her, including getting opinions from other veterinarians.
But the fact remains that I get e-mails like this every day, and it’s frustrating to me that I can’t help this person or all the others like her, and that the help I CAN offer — how to increase the odds of not getting a puppy in as bad a shape as this one — doesn’t seem to be getting through to people.
THAT, I would like to figure out how to change, not only to help people and pets who deserve so much better, but also to put bad breeders out of business for good.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 29, 2010 @ 4:30 pm
Did you recommend she get a 2nd opinion from an orthopedic specialist? I’ve heard of many a pup being mis-diagnosed with severe hip/elbow/knee problems that were then dismissed as natural growth patterns.
Though i suppose she said surgeon in the email, so maybe she did get a specialist’s opinion.
My gut reaction was the same as Shelly’s- maybe she got it from a shelter. Or more likely a family or friend, as recent studies have shown that to be the most common way new owners obtain a pet. That’s not to say someone somewhere down the line didn’t do their homework and this poor pup is the result.
Comment by Anne — June 29, 2010 @ 4:48 pm
Hi Gina,best advice you can ever give!!!!I just wish everyone will read this blog i wish we could put all the puppy mills out of bussines!! I keep spreading the word.
Comment by Alena — June 29, 2010 @ 6:24 pm
At some point, we have to hold the pet-buying public accountable for foolish decisions. In 2010, there’s not much excuse for buying a dog without doing basic due diligence about health.
There are well-known breeders in my breed who do zero health testing, offer no health guarantees, don’t take dogs back, etc. These breeders continue not only to survive but to thrive because they always have puppies available. They cater to the impulse buyer who wants a puppy ‘now’ rather than waiting a few months for a dog from health tested parents that is not ridiculously inbred, etc.
I can’t tell you how many calls I’ve gotten from people who ‘knew better,’ but ended up with a bad outcome because they just had to have a puppy. There’s just not much I can do after the fact.
Comment by Carolyn H — June 29, 2010 @ 6:32 pm
I tell every contact looking for a puppy to ask what health testing is done, where they can view the results, and to please please please visit parent club sites to look and see what conditions are a concern.
Some seem to get it, others try to get past that part of the conversation ASAP to hear where they may find a puppy.
Le sigh…
Right now I have two eight year old dogs. One is well bred from screened parents. He is generally active, athletic and easy to live with (I say generally because he recently missed his take-off going down the stairs in pursuit of a squirrel and slammed into the round, rupturing his
brachial biceps tendon. 6 more weeks of rehab and HE feels fantastic but it’s going to kill me! Even healthy dogs can break)
The other is a more-or-less permanent foster who has problems with eyes-ears-elbows-knees-skin. None are difficult to manage per se, and he is comfortable and happy, playful even, but he requires daily care beyond what the casual pet owner is up for. He looks three times the age of the other dog. He is what a friend of mine terms a genetic cess-pit. Even with cutting edge surgery you could not fix this dog. While I do not begrudge him a comfy chair or rimadyl or the chance to live out his days in comfort here, there is no denying he should never have been born. The fact that he was intact most of his life is more than a little scary.
Comment by JenniferJ — June 29, 2010 @ 6:58 pm
We’ve got a “genetic cess-pit” in our house, too. Fortunately, because he’s a cat, I don’t have to put up with automatic assumptions that I didn’t do my homework and went the cheap and “easy” route. (Though I often get the equally maddening “cats are easy to come by, why not just off ‘it’ and get a new one?”… to which my responses are growing increasingly less and less cordial with each passing year. But I digress.) He’s a former feral, and while I’d gladly do it all over again given the chance, it’s safe to say that the past six years of our lives have been neither cheap nor easy.
Overpopulation aside, animals like T are the primary reason I won’t consider obtaining a pet from a backyard breeding operation. T is handsome, pathologically affectionate, and quite possibly the smartest cat I’ve ever encountered. He’s a wonderful pet. In short… he pretty much meets all the criteria your average well-intentioned (albeit poorly informed) backyard breeder considers when deciding who gets to make a contribution to the gene pool. His issues didn’t begin to manifest themselves until he was a little older, so without testing (or knowledge about his lineage), he would’ve had the opportunity to sire a number of litters before it became apparent that he was a genetic mess. Backyard bred animals may have an advantage over milled pets in the sense that they’re likely being socialized and maintained in a more appropriate manner… but when you don’t know what you’re putting in to the litter, you can’t possibly know what you’ll get out of it.
Education is key. I don’t think it’s just a matter of laziness, impulsivity, or cheapness. There still seems to be a great deal of confusion in the general public regarding what exactly constitutes a reputable breeder. The less informed consumer may see those adorable fat, happy little Rottie pups, AKC registered, friendly parents, great with the kids, being reared in a clean home environment with loads of personal attention and assume that this is what people are talking about when they’re referring to a “good breeder”… only to be shocked when they find themselves in the letter writer’s position a few months down the road. Maybe this unfortunate girl was a mill puppy. Maybe she was a shelter find. But I think it’s also equally plausible that her owner may have obtained her from a breeder that she honestly believed was doing things right.
Comment by 3FabulousFelines — June 30, 2010 @ 3:32 am
Education is key. I don’t think it’s just a matter of laziness, impulsivity, or cheapness. There still seems to be a great deal of confusion in the general public regarding what exactly constitutes a reputable breeder.
Comment by 3FabulousFelines
I agree. Which is exactly why I think the answer to MUCH of the confusion issue is an internet-based rating system based on objective criteria. Not “Susie Poodle breeder was rude on the phone.” But “True or false: Susie Poodle breeder tests for the following common Poodle diseases/disorders: a, b, c, d.”
(This is my secret shopper idea, which was dimissed in that thread as undoable, unfair and maybe unethical. Yet no counter solutions were offered.)
It would help to solve much of the confusion … Not all. But wouldn’t a 15% improvement in breeder/puppy selection be worth it? Or a 30% improvement?
Whenever I’ve purchased a car — always pre-owned — I did not start the process by going to a car lot. I started by reviewing the Consumer Reports ratings for the models and years I was considering.
I am NOT saying that a car and a dog are the same thing. A Poodle from Susie is not a Poodle from Sam.
What I am saying is that Consumer Reports made is EASY for me to see a snapshot that I could use to quickly dismiss some years (bad brakes in the 2003-2004 models) and drill down to othrs (brake problem fixed in the 2006-07 model).
I do a lot of education as part of my day job and in my volunteer work. Many people do not learn best by reading or “hearing” paragraphs. They retain informatoin via bullet points and drawings and snapshots.
That includes me. This is one reason (I am embarrassed to say) that I could not get through Nathan Windograd’s book, Redemption. I heard Nathan speak and he was fabulous. I bought the book that day and could not — could not — read it. His writing is extremely dense. More like Dickens than Bob Bly.
We can argue all day that people SHOULD be willing to wade through the paragraphs and they SHOULD be willing to read website copy that is poorly written if they want a good puppy. Well I think it SHOULD be easy to digest the most important information.
Comments in these threads keep repeating “WE have to educate … people need to be educated … ” etc.
Who is this WE? And to effectively reach the, say 1-2 million people (just a guess) who will acquire puppies next year, how many thousands of “us” do there need to be?
Seems to me WE would get the message clearly communicated to a lot more people if we used the internet instead of relying on person-to-person convesations which limit the numbers of listeners AND assume the speakers can clearly explain AND that the listeners can actually … listen.
Comment by Mary Mary — June 30, 2010 @ 7:38 am
Like Gina, I get literally DOZENS of emails per week from people who have sick dogs, dying dogs, genetically unhealthy dogs or temperamentally unstable dogs. And they all want help, or advice, or a quick fix. Some I can help, some I pass on to other people, and some make me just roll my eyes and sigh.
About 99% of these people got their dogs on impulse. They bought via on line dog shopping sites, or the ad that popped up on Google first, or the free ad in their local Penny Saver.
In addition to the email from people seeking help, I get email from people bitching about why my breed costs so much. It’s not fair, they say, and they’re nice people so they deserve to get a dog for less. And they can find one, too - via the on line site, or the Penny Saver, or the Google ad.
And then, when *their* dog gets sick, I’ll get the emails asking for help.
It’s a round robin of stupidity and suffering. I don’t see a way out of it, so long as there exist people who choose their pets based on the formula: cheapest price + soonest available = puppy bought.
In between the sick dog emails and the ‘why can’t I get one cheaper’ emails come the ones from people who have sent a $500 wire transfer to Nigeria for a ‘free’ French Bulldog puppy, and why won’t the people answer them now? And how do they get their puppy???
I have a great deal of sympathy for many people, and all the dogs, but sometimes (in old skool web terms) teh stoopid, it burns.
Comment by FrogDogz — June 30, 2010 @ 9:59 am
FrogDogz,
What is the (average) difference in price?
On the Pittsburgh Craigslist, seems the going rate for hobby breeder puppies is $200.
Comment by Mary Mary — June 30, 2010 @ 10:14 am
What is the (average) difference in price?
Quite a lot - the European imports can pump out seven or eight pups in a litter, and usually free whelp, so are being sold for $1500. The average well bred Frenchie from tested, champion parents is at least $2500.
Do not even ask me what the ‘color’ breeders are charging.
Comment by FrogDogz — June 30, 2010 @ 10:24 am
FrogDogz,
Thanks. And what are the common illnesses? How much do they cost to treat?
I’m assuming a person can blow through $1000 pretty quickly on bad hips or teeth or whatever it is that Frenchies are prone to.
I’ve spent at least $500 just on my rabbit’s teeth in the past year.
Comment by Mary Mary — June 30, 2010 @ 10:29 am
I should point out here, too, that oftentimes when people complain about price, I will suggest adopting a nice adult from rescue.
Invariably, they will say that they don’t WANT an adult, they want a puppy. One winner responded “Why do I want someone else’s crappy throw away dog”. Charming.
It’s encounters like this that suck a lot of sympathy out of my responses to people, although I do still try to treat situation as unique.
Comment by FrogDogz — June 30, 2010 @ 10:31 am
Thanks. And what are the common illnesses? How much do they cost to treat?
Genetically, the breed is pre disposed to brachcephalic syndrome and the associated conditions associated with it, some incidences of hip and patella issues, spinal issues, juvenile cataracts, possibly Degenerative myelopathy (a study is under way).
I can’t quote costs - I’ve never had to deal with any of them (knock on wood), since I bought one of my first Frenchies 21 years ago. She had bilateral luxation and dysplasia, and was adopted by her treating veterinarian, who did all of the surgeries. No, her parents weren’t tested - but, at the time, NO ONE was testing for anything. Thank God that’s changed.
I have a dog now with DM, and the costs so far are mainly emotional and in terms of inconvenience. Possibly a mobility cart, in the very near future. We’re hoping for a test to be developed which can predict it, but so are a lot of other people in other breeds.
With screening, you shouldn’t have to deal with 90% of this. And yes, it costs a lot of money to thoroughly screen a breeding dog, but not as much as it was quoted to treat that Rotti puppy’s hips…
Comment by FrogDogz — June 30, 2010 @ 10:37 am
Invariably, they will say that they don’t WANT an adult, they want a puppy. One winner responded “Why do I want someone else’s crappy throw away dog”. Charming.
Comment by FrogDogz — June 30, 2010 @ 10:31 am
I often say you don’t GET a puppy. You get a dog. Oh maybe he’s a puppy for a few months but then he’s a DOG for 12 years.
One of the shelters where I volunteer has mandatory training included in the adoption fee for puppies. So that they are less likely to be returned when stop being puppies and turn into … shudder … DOGS.
Comment by Mary Mary — June 30, 2010 @ 11:07 am
I can’t quote costs - I’ve never had to deal with any of them (knock on wood), since I bought one of my first Frenchies 21 years ago.
Comment by FrogDogz — June 30, 2010 @ 10:37 am
It might help you to sell the idea of going with well-bred dogs if you knew and shared the typical fees for treating typical health probems.
If I were considering a purebred dog, I might decide to go with a tested puppy and pay the extra $1,000 if I knew how that treatment for ConditionX cost $2,000.
I advocate for domestic rabbits. They are a dime a dozen, even the “pedigree” ones. I am always trying to convince people to get their bunnies spayed.
“I dunno … that’s $150 …”
I tell them look, pro-rate it. She’ll live 10 years. That’s $15 a year. If you won’t pay that to protect her from uterine cancer — a HUGE problem with female rabbits — we are not even going to debate this. Find a new home for her.
Comment by Mary Mary — June 30, 2010 @ 11:14 am
Is a good score on the OFA / Penn hip a guarantee that your puppy will be free from hip dsyplasia?
I know of one girl who got a puppy from a reputable breeder who did have hip testing done on the parents and her dog still ended up with crappy hips.
It just seems like sometimes you do everything right and still get the crap end of the stick.
Comment by Sheyna — June 30, 2010 @ 11:16 am
It just seems like sometimes you do everything right and still get the crap end of the stick.
Maybe so, but testing can help reduce your chances of getting the crappy end. Reduce them signifigantly, in fact.
As for treatment costs, I do try to tell people about all the things that can go wrong, and the costs of treating them in ballpark terms, but honestly - some people just don’t want to hear it. They just want what they want, when they want it. I had some people who were waiting for a puppy, and on a trip to pick up supplies, they impulse bought a puppy while they were there (for $1500 more than my well bred puppy, might I add). A week later, and they were on the phone because the new puppy had parvo, and now they wanted my puppy again. When I said no, they threatened to sue (he’s a lawyer). When that didn’t work, they played the ‘our puppy is going to die and you don’t caaaaare’ card.
Honestly, it’s a wonder more of us aren’t burned out than already are.
Comment by FrogDogz — June 30, 2010 @ 11:38 am
Sheyna … first: What were the RESULTS of the tests? And what were the results of the tests not only on the parents, but on grandparents, siblings, etc.?
And yes, of course, you can do everything right and still have a dog with health or temperament problems. In the same way (as I noted in the original post) we are not ourselves perfect, despite some pretty aggressive outcrossing and random breeding. :)
In my family, my brother and I joke that it’s not fair the the offspring of a klutzy, opera singer who is also a natural artist (mom) and a strong, graceful former professional athlete who couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket produces two klutzy kids who can’t sing or draw — and managed to collect all the bad genes in the family to have juvenile-onset diabetes (brother), asthma (me) and allergies (both).
But back to dogs: It’s more likely that you won’t see hip problems if the testing is being done not only on the parents but also on all the relatives, and the results are good or better.
Search for my dog McKenzie and you can see that she and five of her siblings (some of them are erroneously listed as half-siblings but the “M” dogs are litter mates) are “Good” or “Excellent” for hips. Her mom was “Excellent.” The two younger half sibs are also “Good” or “Excellent.”
Her dad doesn’t show here because he’s Swedish, but he’s also rated highly in their system on many fronts, but flagged as a carrier of an eye disease.
Here’s the record for my dog Heather and her littermates. Five of seven of them lived to be 11, two to be 12, and one to be 13. A few months before Heather died (at almost 13) we were looking for cancer on an X-ray. The radiologist said, “HOW OLD is this dog? I can’t believe how great she looks!” She moved well and without pain until within a few weeks of her death.
So yeah, no guarantees in life, but you can improve the odds with testing.
That’s for what we can test for, that is. Because what isn’t showing — and should be — is that in each of those well-tested litters, there were young deaths as a result of that which we cannot test for — cancer. Two in Heather’s litter, and one in McKenzie’s. Of course, I’m hoping in McKenzie’s litter, since they are just five years old, one is all we’ll be losing young to anything.
The problems with cancer in flatcoats and goldens is why I’m in favor of well-planned outcrosses to deepen the gene pool. And I do think that day is coming when we’ll see them. Then, we’ll have the best of it all: The preservation of a heritage working breed, with testing to help rule out the problems we can, and the end of genetic bottlenecks that kill too many dogs because of the closed registry breeding system we’ve written about so many times here.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 30, 2010 @ 11:49 am
So yeah, no guarantees in life, but you can improve the odds with testing.
——-
And by checking out Consumer Reports before you buy that car.
Comment by Mary Mary — June 30, 2010 @ 12:01 pm
Alas I’m not sure of the details, but I know she felt that she had done everything she could to cover all the bases.
Whether or not that’s true is up the air I suppose but it’s certainly an unenviable position to be in.
Comment by Sheyna — June 30, 2010 @ 12:07 pm
Oh, I forgot to note above that almost NONE of those tested dogs were bred. They were never planned to be bred, mostly. They were tested because their breeder and their owners thought it was important for the information to be on file.
In Heather’s litter, one male was bred, and I think just one time. None of the females were ever bred. That litter is arguably one of the most accomplished in the history of the breed, with all four males in the hall of fame with championships, field titles, agility and obedience titles, and loved like the heart dogs they were, forever. My little Heather didn’t achieve much — my fault, not hers — but she placed at three national specialties and earned a field title at six months. They were all solid, sound working companions, honest dogs who for the most part stayed remarkably healthy for most of their long lives.
In McKenzie’s litter, two females have been bred, and both those girls are now spayed. There are no plans for breeding any of the littermates at this point. And this litter, too, is remarkable, with a world-class agility dog, two master hunters and three champions — and they’re not done.
The owners of the dogs involved and their breeder thought it was important to the health of the breed overall to test all the littermates to have the information available to make good decision.
We will be doing the same with McKenzie’s 15-month-old puppies, collecting all the data we can even though we don’t know if ANY of them will be bred, ever.
If you search for “Windfall” on the OFA site and select for flat-coated retrievers, you will see seven pages of records on 20-plus years of dogs, and a quick glance showed only one “fair” hip in the lot.
And you know what? None of those dogs was as expensive as a golden puppy from a puppy-mill retail outlet.
I would say it goes without saying — except it needs to be said — that the testing of the non-breeding relatives “for information only” is a cost of thousands and thousands of dollars with no “return on investment.” It’s what you freaking DO when you’re an ethical, responsible breeder. It doesn’t “pencil out” because it’s not a business.
That last point? Cannot be made enough times.
The sad thing is, you have to know how to read the code to know what effort went into these dogs, and know that a “G” or “E” in the evaluation number on an individual dog is how you can see this at a glance.
Which gets back to Christie point, again: It shouldn’t be this hard to find a good breeder. I swear it’s like some secret society with four passwords and a secret handshake to get into.
But it IS easy to spot the bad breeders and AVOID THEM. Damn easy. And if people would just do that it would be a great start.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 30, 2010 @ 1:03 pm
Gina,
If those dogs are such great examples of the breed, why aren’t more of them being bred?
Is it because there is not high enough demand from suitable owners?
Comment by Mary Mary — June 30, 2010 @ 1:14 pm
I just realized I might be struck by lightning at any minute. So if I disappear from this blog, that’s why. I’m a crisp of toast.
Me!
Actually ENCOURAGING breeding!
[ME!]
Comment by Mary Mary — June 30, 2010 @ 1:15 pm
In this case, the low demand for the breed would be part of the answer, the difficulty of finding suitable homes for a high-drive hunting dog is part of the answer. Many of the people who have them are interested in high-drive working/sport dogs but not interested in raising a litter — which is really amazingly hard work if you’re doing it right, as I can tell you.
But also, I think most of those dogs were never bred because the person behind Windfall (my friend Mary) keeps very tight control over the breeding of her dogs and any dogs that came from her dogs and doesn’t have more dogs in homes than she could deal with if things went wrong and they had to come back for any reason.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 30, 2010 @ 1:20 pm
I’ve often thought “someone” should come up with a “good housekeeping seal of approval” for dogs. Never mind if he’s got an AKC championship, tell me he & his parents are certified to have all of the testing recommended for their breed by the “surgeon general” of dogdom. Tell me what performance events his ancestors excelled in, tell me how old his xgrandparents were when they crossed the bridge and what health issues they had.
Tell me how many dogs in this line have been put down for health or temperament issues.
It seems like a much better use of a breeders funds than spending thousands of dollars putting championships on dogs. Championships which really only mean the the dog looks “good” as a youngster.
Comment by schnauzer — June 30, 2010 @ 2:24 pm
Sigh, Schnauzer, the only way you or I as devotees of our respective breeds can know that is by establishing relationships with breeders, and winnowing out on our own those breeders whose lines and breeding practices we admire from the chaff. Even “good” breeders are often unwilling to disclose genetic health issues in their lines, especially if as adolescents, their dogs win in the Breed Ring. The Breed Ring has long lost it’s place as the way to exhibit qualified, healthy breeding stock in favor of the dog that catches the Judge’s eye and becomes flavor of the month. If in 5 years down the line their dogs exhibit PRA for instance, they are very unwilling to change direction in midstream, so won’t admit it because the AKC ribbons keep coming. At that point you enter the realm of the human psyche where winning becomes much more important than the overall health of the dog or it’s progeny. I have no clue how to fix that. Perhaps while we are edumacating puppeh buyers about what to look for in a responsibly bred puppeh, we need to be edumacating breeders that it’s not all about that Group 1 placement or that BIS. Dogs have many purposes, as stock guardians, herders, scent hunters, sight hunters, vermin removal systems etc, but first and foremost as healthy family members for the people who own and love them.
Comment by Deb — June 30, 2010 @ 3:01 pm
First, I absolutely love the word “edjumacate,” which I think originated with H. Houlahan.
Second, it’s sadly true that many breeders are unwilling/ashamed/embarrassed when something dreadful turns up. The dreadful happened with McKenzie’s father, who was discovered to be a carrier of PRA near the END of a long and successful life as a top field dog (and after fathering a few litters).
Well, swell.
The truth was not hidden — it’s right on his information page — and has been volunteered in this country as part of the process of screening buyers of dogs related to his American offspring, McKenzie and her siblings. And, of course, the dogs here are all CERF certified as well. (Although McKenzie’s isn’t showing up on her health info because someone — me! — forget to send the check with the paperwork. It’s time for her recheck and re-cert soon anyway, so it’ll all catch up. Her eyes were certified A-OK by a boarded veterinary ophthalmologist in advance of her breeding. And yes, I’m paying for her eyes to be checked annually and re certified even though she’ll never have another litter — she’s spayed. But this is important.)
Sunshine is the best disinfectant. As a journalist I’ve believed that all my life, but I never knew how strongly I’d believe in it as “dog person.”
No secrets. No shame. Just open the books and let the sun shine in. When I was first approached maybe 20 years ago about doing a story on an open health registry, it was because the people who were trying to get it going were meeting a wall of resistance. There are a lot of holes in that wall now, and a lot more people who realize that secrets are bad for the dogs we say we love. And sharing information is one of the key ways to help breed healthier dogs.
Now, if we could just open the registries, too, for some thoughtfully planned outcrosses to break open these genetic bottlenecks …
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 30, 2010 @ 3:29 pm
Deb. Sadly, yes. I know. All too well. But when I run the world… I’m going to see some changes made. ;)
I’m a librarian who uses a service dog. The combination seems to attract people who think I should be able to find the perfect puppy for them. Tomorrow, if not by c.o.b. today. Argh.
I suggest that they get involved with the local dog training or agility clubs, even the local kennel club, just to make some connections. Meet some breeders, get to know their dogs. Get involved with one of the local rescue groups, or the local humane society… I get SUCH looks.
Someone comes wanting leads of where they can get a rare woozle hound. I suggest they think about the slightly more common wizzle hound. I know two great caring breeders who have wonderful wizzles. Nope. Gotta have a woozle, after all they have a rightward twist to the tail and not a socialist leftward twist. We’ll just order one off of the web…
It used to be they just went to the want ads in the local paper. Now they are able to pay really big bucks to get a pig in a poke.
Comment by schnauzer — June 30, 2010 @ 3:31 pm
Gina, I couldn’t agree more! Sunshine IS the best cure. I am not going to bore your readers with the details of my new puppy, just suffice it to say you and Christie would be thrilled at my choice of breeders, and the fact that his parents are both CHICed, that Pat Hastings evaluated the litter, and that a modified Vollhard test for sighthounds was also given. Not only that, as if we weren’t before, his breeders and I are now extended family and friends for life. They are in my back pocket. In fact I have “arranged” a marriage so to speak with their awesome driven obnoxious bitch and my favorite IG stud of all time, and I get to share pick of the litter with the stud owner, with his ultimate home being mine after he finishes. Life doesn’t get better than that in my book.
How does this relate to the topic at hand? It doesn’t, except that I spent my time and paid my dues on the Interwebs, learning about my breed, giving advice about issues I encountered, in short establishing a reputation for myself as someone who Does Things with her dogs. Consequently, I doubt there is a responsible,ethical breeder of IGs that I should wish to approach that would deny me a dog of their breeding. As much as we want to deny or circumvent it, to get a dog from an ethical breeder, you have to pay your effing dues! Frankly, I have no problem with that. In spite of it being the American Way, I don’t believe dog ownership is for everybody, is guaranteed under the Constitution, any more than I believe child rearing should be a universal right.
Comment by Deb — June 30, 2010 @ 4:06 pm
Gina, one of your ZinKuties is insisting that he WILL be bred, today if at all possible. His current choice of mates, 9.5 year old spayed Auntie Gracie, is having none of it.
Your story of the Rottie is too familiar and frustrating. I see lots of heartbreaking cases in my canine rehab practice. The worst are the sporting dogs that have multiple common orthopedic problems and to add insult to injury, they have improper breed temperament and are so afraid of the world that it is very difficult to help them with rehab. So poor breeding and probably poor early socialization gives them a double whammy.
And yet, some people just can’t or won’t learn. Like the woman with a dog with bilateral hip AND bilateral elbow dysplasia who still thought it was ridiculous to pay $1000 for a well bred puppy from parents with OFA clearances for her next dog. Cost of a puppy was about equal to the cost of a year of Rimadyl….
Comment by Katie Bruesewitz — June 30, 2010 @ 4:57 pm
And yet, some people just can’t or won’t learn. Like the woman with a dog with bilateral hip AND bilateral elbow dysplasia who still thought it was ridiculous to pay $1000 for a well bred puppy from parents with OFA clearances for her next dog. Cost of a puppy was about equal to the cost of a year of Rimadyl….
Comment by Katie Bruesewitz — June 30, 2010 @ 4:57 pm
This is so insane I have to think she’s in some major denial … like there was NO WAY she could have prevented that awful experience with her dog, so why “pretend” that clearances and testing makes a difference?
Comment by Mary Mary — June 30, 2010 @ 5:13 pm
Hey Deb, how is the Volhard test modified for sighthound puppies?
Do you change some of the exercises, or just evaluate the responses differently?
I’ve never tested a litter of sighthounds — enquiring minds want to know!
Comment by H. Houlahan — June 30, 2010 @ 11:03 pm
I see a lot of talk about health testing here.
And I believe in health testing. Do the relevant tests for my breed, and am transparent withe the results — up to requiring open registry for OFA on all the pups I sell, or sending the PennHIP report to the breed registrar, since PH refuses to host an open registry.
But health test, purge, purify is also a trap.
Many genetic conditions have no tests for carriers or asymptomatic affecteds.
I’m frankly more concerned that breeders wait until dogs are mature before breeding, breed only sound dogs from sound families, and evaluate the first offspring before deciding there will be subsequent ones.
If everyone waited until their animals were two or, better, three before breeding.
Then, after a first litter for a bitch, and maybe two early litters for a dog, waited for those pups to grow up and really evaluated what they’d produced …
Hell, we might have some dogs who lived longer. But in any event, it’s time for many health issues to show themselves, either in the prospective breeding dog, or his parents, siblings, etc.
One of Pip’s male pups got an OFA excellent hip rating — report came in last week. He’s 37 months old. There have been only ten males to rate excellent in the breed, and maybe three of them are alive and at stud.
Tuck’s owner will not only be very choosy about the bitches (and bitch owners) she considers, but her plan is to breed him maybe twice before he’s four, then wait 2-3 years and see how those litters turn out before considering whether to let him swim in the gene pool again.
Comment by H. Houlahan — June 30, 2010 @ 11:15 pm
*I* wasn’t writing about breeding age and evaluation of the actual soundness and abilities of the dog before breeding because, well, it’s a given among these same good breeders.
To again cite my own two examples here in the house: McKenzie was four when bred. Health certs, title quests but mostly her breeder/co-owners judgment of McK, who she would be best suited with and what direction the breeding would take the breed.
Woody is a better example: He is five and has been used once, and those puppies are nearing two. No plans near-term to use him again, although he is always being discussed (and if he knew it, always hoping for the best, I’d guess.). Woody has a junior level field title (which I did) and is trained to higher levels (which Mary did, of course) although isn’t competing (because he lives with me). He’s also a Ch. He’s also solid as a semi, agile, strong, indefatigable, biddable, smart and has a bomb-proof temperament. He’s a good dog, is Teh Woodman. His biggest fault is he hates heat — but he’ll work in it if he has to, so I need to be careful not to ask too much of him when it gets really hot. I need to look out for him at lower levels of concern than then others, because I figure it’s not just that he “hates” heat, but that he’s more sensitive to it and will make himself sick pushing through the discomfort if he has work to do.
Say what you will about AKC titles: It takes time to get them, and good breeders usually wait until after they have them, and then use them as part of the eval criteria for breeding.
Part of the contract my friend Mary uses is annual check-ins. And if you don’t check in, she will hunt you down. She knows how almost every one of her dogs has grown up, lived and died. They inform her decisions as she goes forward.
I’ll guarantee you that Christie was the same — and I say *was* because she hasn’t bred in a long time now, may never again and all the dogs she bred are gone now.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — July 1, 2010 @ 5:22 am
Coincidentally, from today’s Craigslist:
Hello,
My family has recently searching for a quality Golden Retriver breeder. Our last dog, Sadie, had hip issues and had to be put to sleep last week = (. She was from a breeder as well and we want to make sure we research well to do our best to avoid health problems again, IF that is at all possible. If you have recommendations for Golden Retriever breeders in the local area, please share your recommendations and/or concerns. I have come across quite a few, but am not sure which to choose and would like to place a deposit soon. We are also willing to consider young goldens that have been rescued, but raised around children, and need rehomed. AKC papers are not important. This will be a family dog. Any help you can give is greatly appreciated.
————
Here is the “expert” advice that was posted:
“There are no guarantees that the dog you purchase will not have heath issues no matter how many tests eh breeder has had. The most important thing you can do is maintain your dogs weight and health. Most breeders are reputable but always remember that it is a business and profit is the bottom line. If you can find a small breeder that raises their dogs in their home would be your best bet. I have always purchased my dogs in this matter and have had pretty good luck.”
So, there you go. Testing doesn’t matter, breeders are in it for profit, and that’s OK —support them anyway, as long as the dogs are kept in the house.
Comment by Mary Mary — July 1, 2010 @ 6:38 am
MM … can you offer them THIS link:
http://www.embracepetinsurance.....iever.aspx
And this goes back to what happens when good, ethical breeders side with puppy-milling scum because of the slippery slope BS: It makes it easy for people who already hate breeders to continue saying “a breeder is a breeder is a breeder and they’re all about nothing more than the bottom line.”
:::head explodes:::
Comment by Gina Spadafori — July 1, 2010 @ 6:49 am
I sent it — thanks.
There’s an ad on that now from a woman who took in a stray dog last winter. The dog was pregnant and gave birth to six puppies.
A month or so ago, the dog got pregnant AGAIN to the unneutered male in the house.
It’s phrased as “the inevitable happened.”
Inevitable.
Now they are giving away the female dog because they “can’t afford to get her fixed.”
This city has many, many options for low-cost spay and neuter.
This is why I need to stay away from Craigslist.
And this is why I think that 98% of dog owners should spay and neuter their dogs. End of story.
Sorry if that’s not very tolerant of the collective IQ of the masses. “Inevitable.” Way to accept responsbility.
Comment by Mary Mary — July 1, 2010 @ 7:17 am