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	<title>Comments on: Can a simple blood test diagnose cancer in dogs?</title>
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	<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2010/04/15/can-a-simple-blood-test-diagnose-cancer-in-dogs/</link>
	<description>Blogging by a team of pet-care experts.</description>
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		<title>By: Christie Keith</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2010/04/15/can-a-simple-blood-test-diagnose-cancer-in-dogs/comment-page-1/#comment-489687</link>
		<dc:creator>Christie Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=14244#comment-489687</guid>
		<description>Dear Dr. Ogilvie,

Thanks so much for coming by to add your additional remarks!

Christie Keith</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Dr. Ogilvie,</p>
<p>Thanks so much for coming by to add your additional remarks!</p>
<p>Christie Keith</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Ogilvie</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2010/04/15/can-a-simple-blood-test-diagnose-cancer-in-dogs/comment-page-1/#comment-489683</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Ogilvie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=14244#comment-489683</guid>
		<description>As noted above, early detction and diagnosis of cancer is very important for enhancing cure rates. Thus far, no sensitive and specific test exists that allows us the grace of detecting cancer prior to the time it becomes a clinical problem.  The concept of this diagnostic test is wonderful. The application of the test noted above and the published scientific proof of its efficacy by the general veterinary and biomedical community is still in process I am sure. Thus, &quot;the jury is still out.&quot; 
Gregory K. Ogilvie, DVM
Diplomate ACVIM (Internal Medicine, Oncology)
Diplomate ECVIM-CA (Oncology)
Director, Angel Care Cancer Center</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As noted above, early detction and diagnosis of cancer is very important for enhancing cure rates. Thus far, no sensitive and specific test exists that allows us the grace of detecting cancer prior to the time it becomes a clinical problem.  The concept of this diagnostic test is wonderful. The application of the test noted above and the published scientific proof of its efficacy by the general veterinary and biomedical community is still in process I am sure. Thus, &#8220;the jury is still out.&#8221;<br />
Gregory K. Ogilvie, DVM<br />
Diplomate ACVIM (Internal Medicine, Oncology)<br />
Diplomate ECVIM-CA (Oncology)<br />
Director, Angel Care Cancer Center</p>
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		<title>By: Christie Keith</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2010/04/15/can-a-simple-blood-test-diagnose-cancer-in-dogs/comment-page-1/#comment-489670</link>
		<dc:creator>Christie Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=14244#comment-489670</guid>
		<description>That comment was a direct copy and paste from Dr. Ogilvie&#039;s email in response to our query. I have the entire email thread. If you&#039;re in touch with Dr. Ogilvie and he has concerns, he can email any of us here at Pet Connection, or Dr. Becker when he returns from his vacation, and we&#039;ll forward him the email. 

His comments are accurate and as he wrote them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That comment was a direct copy and paste from Dr. Ogilvie&#8217;s email in response to our query. I have the entire email thread. If you&#8217;re in touch with Dr. Ogilvie and he has concerns, he can email any of us here at Pet Connection, or Dr. Becker when he returns from his vacation, and we&#8217;ll forward him the email. </p>
<p>His comments are accurate and as he wrote them.</p>
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		<title>By: John Adams</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2010/04/15/can-a-simple-blood-test-diagnose-cancer-in-dogs/comment-page-1/#comment-489668</link>
		<dc:creator>John Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=14244#comment-489668</guid>
		<description>Something did not ring true about this article. I know that Dr. Ogilvie would never make the above comments about an unproven test with a huge number of false positives.

I contacted Dr. Ogilvie asking him about being quoted on Pet Connection. This was his response.

&quot;I have never discussed this subject nor have I authorized any comments about it.&quot; 
Dr. Greg Ogilvie

An explanation on the source of the quoted comments needs to be made by Pet connection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something did not ring true about this article. I know that Dr. Ogilvie would never make the above comments about an unproven test with a huge number of false positives.</p>
<p>I contacted Dr. Ogilvie asking him about being quoted on Pet Connection. This was his response.</p>
<p>&#8220;I have never discussed this subject nor have I authorized any comments about it.&#8221;<br />
Dr. Greg Ogilvie</p>
<p>An explanation on the source of the quoted comments needs to be made by Pet connection.</p>
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		<title>By: Rochelle Lesser</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2010/04/15/can-a-simple-blood-test-diagnose-cancer-in-dogs/comment-page-1/#comment-486451</link>
		<dc:creator>Rochelle Lesser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 May 2010 16:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=14244#comment-486451</guid>
		<description>Whoaaaaaa! This discussion sure got scary as I read through the progression of posts.

Having founded a nonprofit that funds cancer treatment for working dogs ( http://grants.landofpuregold.com ) and research in comparative oncology (study of cancers that occur similarly in humans and companion animals), I am always on the lookout for the latest and greatest. Sadly, it seems most articles discuss future trends or future promise. Yet, we are moving forward.

Dr. Greg Ogilvie is a recognized leader in the fight. In fact, my foundation provided him with $15,000. But, like many in the field, his words were *measured*. He, like many of us, are hoping that tests like this one can eventually be perfected and ultimately added to other routine blood tests.

I think the author of the post was clear about the *could* element. I am sure that Dr. Ogilvie is aware of the detailed disclaimer page from the company, and, I would agree, that the page is a bit frightening, especially with the indication that: The OncoPet RECAF™ test has NOT been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, or any other regulatory organization in any country for use in the diagnosis of cancer in any species and there is no assurance when or if such approval will be forthcoming. 

At my site ( http://cancer.landofpuregold.com/screening.htm ) I talk about diagnostic cancer screening. The company PetScreen also looks promising, already having developed a screen for canine lymphoma. You are going to see many new companies emerging as a result of post genomic research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoaaaaaa! This discussion sure got scary as I read through the progression of posts.</p>
<p>Having founded a nonprofit that funds cancer treatment for working dogs ( <a href="http://grants.landofpuregold.com" rel="nofollow">http://grants.landofpuregold.com</a> ) and research in comparative oncology (study of cancers that occur similarly in humans and companion animals), I am always on the lookout for the latest and greatest. Sadly, it seems most articles discuss future trends or future promise. Yet, we are moving forward.</p>
<p>Dr. Greg Ogilvie is a recognized leader in the fight. In fact, my foundation provided him with $15,000. But, like many in the field, his words were *measured*. He, like many of us, are hoping that tests like this one can eventually be perfected and ultimately added to other routine blood tests.</p>
<p>I think the author of the post was clear about the *could* element. I am sure that Dr. Ogilvie is aware of the detailed disclaimer page from the company, and, I would agree, that the page is a bit frightening, especially with the indication that: The OncoPet RECAF™ test has NOT been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, or any other regulatory organization in any country for use in the diagnosis of cancer in any species and there is no assurance when or if such approval will be forthcoming. </p>
<p>At my site ( <a href="http://cancer.landofpuregold.com/screening.htm" rel="nofollow">http://cancer.landofpuregold.com/screening.htm</a> ) I talk about diagnostic cancer screening. The company PetScreen also looks promising, already having developed a screen for canine lymphoma. You are going to see many new companies emerging as a result of post genomic research.</p>
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		<title>By: H. Houlahan</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2010/04/15/can-a-simple-blood-test-diagnose-cancer-in-dogs/comment-page-1/#comment-485822</link>
		<dc:creator>H. Houlahan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 05:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=14244#comment-485822</guid>
		<description>David, YOU chose the quote from your authority.

The QUOTE does not include any information or insight about the basic science that is the basis of the test, nor any numbers about why it is &quot;promising.&quot;  There was nothing in that QUOTE that should induce any prudent person to part with an additional $100+ at every well-dog checkup (which is essentially what the manufacturer is pushing -- not some time in the future, but right now, today), because there was no information. 

I was commenting on the QUOTE.

Attacking me because you all have great respect for the &quot;authority&quot; who provided the quote doesn&#039;t add any information or weight to what you chose to quote.

The question still remains.  Where are the peer-reviewed published studies that demonstrate the usefulness of this test? -- the proportion of false positives and false negatives to accurate detections, for one, but also its overall ability to provide information that actually improves the outcomes for the patients who are tested.

How would you like your vet to call you up with this tidbit --

&quot;Your apparently healthy dog has tested positive for &#039;cancer.&#039;  We don&#039;t have any idea what kind, or where, or how advanced, or whether it is metastatic, or actually whether or not he has cancer at all, and we can&#039;t even tell you how likely it is that the test is a false positive, but you can chew on this and try to decide what to do.&quot;

Again, I don&#039;t see why paying patients, and the owners of patients, should be the ones to find out whether a test is any damned good.  That onus is on the people who are selling it.  The appropriate response to the sales pitch is not &quot;How exciting if you aren&#039;t lying to me!&quot; but &quot;Prove it.&quot;  The fact that the test is &quot;still being investigated and verified&quot; while it is currently for sale to the owners of patients and being shilled as part of a routine exam on the seller&#039;s website is appalling.

Unfortunately, medical tests are not regulated for efficacy even to the inadequate degree that drugs are.  The sellers of the test haven&#039;t had to meet any standards in order to hang out the shingle.  And they haven&#039;t chosen to present any peer-reviewed papers in lieu of regulatory compliance.  But there are several telling disclaimers in their PDF meant for veterinarians, including:

&lt;i&gt;The calculation of the positive/negative cutoff value and the sensitivity and specificity 
of the test are estimated from a relatively small number of samples and might not 
reflect the values obtained from a larger number of samples and might require 
adjustment as the number of samples increases.&lt;/i&gt;

In other words, &quot;We haven&#039;t bothered to test on enough samples to achieve statistical significance.&quot;

And there&#039;s no apparent intent to perform systematic follow-up on the accuracy and usefulness of results provided to paying clients.

For Pete&#039;s sake, they don&#039;t even refund the price of the test when the result they report is wrong.  When an &quot;independent pathologist&quot; reports either that the test was a false negative (so maybe the animal dies because cancer was erroneously &quot;ruled out&quot;) or a false positive (so the owners just spent a mint on the cancer snipe hunt and got a good scare for nothing), they&#039;ll credit the vet for a free test.  Kind of like the guarantees from those puppymills that will send you a &quot;replacement&quot; as long as you send back the sick one you bought first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, YOU chose the quote from your authority.</p>
<p>The QUOTE does not include any information or insight about the basic science that is the basis of the test, nor any numbers about why it is &#8220;promising.&#8221;  There was nothing in that QUOTE that should induce any prudent person to part with an additional $100+ at every well-dog checkup (which is essentially what the manufacturer is pushing &#8212; not some time in the future, but right now, today), because there was no information. </p>
<p>I was commenting on the QUOTE.</p>
<p>Attacking me because you all have great respect for the &#8220;authority&#8221; who provided the quote doesn&#8217;t add any information or weight to what you chose to quote.</p>
<p>The question still remains.  Where are the peer-reviewed published studies that demonstrate the usefulness of this test? &#8212; the proportion of false positives and false negatives to accurate detections, for one, but also its overall ability to provide information that actually improves the outcomes for the patients who are tested.</p>
<p>How would you like your vet to call you up with this tidbit &#8212;</p>
<p>&#8220;Your apparently healthy dog has tested positive for &#8216;cancer.&#8217;  We don&#8217;t have any idea what kind, or where, or how advanced, or whether it is metastatic, or actually whether or not he has cancer at all, and we can&#8217;t even tell you how likely it is that the test is a false positive, but you can chew on this and try to decide what to do.&#8221;</p>
<p>Again, I don&#8217;t see why paying patients, and the owners of patients, should be the ones to find out whether a test is any damned good.  That onus is on the people who are selling it.  The appropriate response to the sales pitch is not &#8220;How exciting if you aren&#8217;t lying to me!&#8221; but &#8220;Prove it.&#8221;  The fact that the test is &#8220;still being investigated and verified&#8221; while it is currently for sale to the owners of patients and being shilled as part of a routine exam on the seller&#8217;s website is appalling.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, medical tests are not regulated for efficacy even to the inadequate degree that drugs are.  The sellers of the test haven&#8217;t had to meet any standards in order to hang out the shingle.  And they haven&#8217;t chosen to present any peer-reviewed papers in lieu of regulatory compliance.  But there are several telling disclaimers in their PDF meant for veterinarians, including:</p>
<p><i>The calculation of the positive/negative cutoff value and the sensitivity and specificity<br />
of the test are estimated from a relatively small number of samples and might not<br />
reflect the values obtained from a larger number of samples and might require<br />
adjustment as the number of samples increases.</i></p>
<p>In other words, &#8220;We haven&#8217;t bothered to test on enough samples to achieve statistical significance.&#8221;</p>
<p>And there&#8217;s no apparent intent to perform systematic follow-up on the accuracy and usefulness of results provided to paying clients.</p>
<p>For Pete&#8217;s sake, they don&#8217;t even refund the price of the test when the result they report is wrong.  When an &#8220;independent pathologist&#8221; reports either that the test was a false negative (so maybe the animal dies because cancer was erroneously &#8220;ruled out&#8221;) or a false positive (so the owners just spent a mint on the cancer snipe hunt and got a good scare for nothing), they&#8217;ll credit the vet for a free test.  Kind of like the guarantees from those puppymills that will send you a &#8220;replacement&#8221; as long as you send back the sick one you bought first.</p>
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		<title>By: mary frances</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2010/04/15/can-a-simple-blood-test-diagnose-cancer-in-dogs/comment-page-1/#comment-485816</link>
		<dc:creator>mary frances</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 23:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=14244#comment-485816</guid>
		<description>and Houlahan - fanboy squee? God love ya, had to google that one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and Houlahan - fanboy squee? God love ya, had to google that one.</p>
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		<title>By: Marge</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2010/04/15/can-a-simple-blood-test-diagnose-cancer-in-dogs/comment-page-1/#comment-485815</link>
		<dc:creator>Marge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 23:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=14244#comment-485815</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been very fortunate (so far) that none of the dozen dogs I&#039;ve owned has gotten cancer, and I&#039;m glad to learn that there MAY be a helpful test on the horizon.  Yes, $100 is a fair amount, but as Christie says, not much compared to other tests and treatments (I just had my 10 year old epileptic collie&#039;s teeth cleaned and the blood work, round of antibiotics, SAM-E, and cleaning came to $625).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been very fortunate (so far) that none of the dozen dogs I&#8217;ve owned has gotten cancer, and I&#8217;m glad to learn that there MAY be a helpful test on the horizon.  Yes, $100 is a fair amount, but as Christie says, not much compared to other tests and treatments (I just had my 10 year old epileptic collie&#8217;s teeth cleaned and the blood work, round of antibiotics, SAM-E, and cleaning came to $625).</p>
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		<title>By: mary frances</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2010/04/15/can-a-simple-blood-test-diagnose-cancer-in-dogs/comment-page-1/#comment-485814</link>
		<dc:creator>mary frances</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 23:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=14244#comment-485814</guid>
		<description>To me $100.00 wouldn&#039;t be the issue - it would be the could detect part..I think it&#039;s great this could be a test to detect cancer. I&#039;ve had cancer myself - I&#039;m a cancer survivor myself, that&#039;s the term - and I discovered my own tumor - I read way too much about cancer when I had cancer but what I gathered is: we&#039;re still very much in the dark ages when it comes to the disease. (my humble opinion) We still have basically 3 treatments only - radiation, surgery, chemo (or as some cancer patients put it burning, cutting and poison) BUT the future will exclude all three of those - and on this I have no doubt (some new treatments are already becoming available) - and if this test is progress in the direction of better cancer treatment..well a big hearty sincere yahoo! And thank you for writing about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me $100.00 wouldn&#8217;t be the issue - it would be the could detect part..I think it&#8217;s great this could be a test to detect cancer. I&#8217;ve had cancer myself - I&#8217;m a cancer survivor myself, that&#8217;s the term - and I discovered my own tumor - I read way too much about cancer when I had cancer but what I gathered is: we&#8217;re still very much in the dark ages when it comes to the disease. (my humble opinion) We still have basically 3 treatments only - radiation, surgery, chemo (or as some cancer patients put it burning, cutting and poison) BUT the future will exclude all three of those - and on this I have no doubt (some new treatments are already becoming available) - and if this test is progress in the direction of better cancer treatment..well a big hearty sincere yahoo! And thank you for writing about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Christie Keith</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2010/04/15/can-a-simple-blood-test-diagnose-cancer-in-dogs/comment-page-1/#comment-485812</link>
		<dc:creator>Christie Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 22:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=14244#comment-485812</guid>
		<description>While I know that to some people $100 is a lot, to others, it&#039;s nothing. It&#039;s not up to me to decide how people should spend their money, or what they can afford. But on the scale of the tests and treatments for cancer, $100 is chump change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I know that to some people $100 is a lot, to others, it&#8217;s nothing. It&#8217;s not up to me to decide how people should spend their money, or what they can afford. But on the scale of the tests and treatments for cancer, $100 is chump change.</p>
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