Is greyhound racing heading for the final turn?

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Is greyhound racing heading for the final turn?

By David S. Greene

March 25, 2010

In 1991, Americans wagered $3.5 billion on greyhound racing in the United States. A decade and a half later, the number had dropped to $1.1 billion, a 68% decline. You don’t have to be an economist to draw the conclusion: Dog racing in America is in a rapid, inexorable death spiral. The Las Vegas Sun highlighted the industry’s plight this week as the American Greyhound Track Owner’s Association (AGTOA) met for their annual convention there.

Each year attendance drops at the convention. This year’s gathering is expected to draw about 120 people. Fifteen years ago the tally was upwards of 400. The industry is in such rapid decline that a growing number of dog track owners are finding common ground with animal-rights groups hoping to put live dog racing out of its misery.

In Iowa, for example, Harrah’s Entertainment is trying to outlaw part of its gambling business and is willing to pay the state $7 million a year for the privilege.

Just to reiterate that last line: Harrah’s is willing to pay Iowa $7 million NOT to support dog racing? That’s saying something. While I hate to see hard-working Americans lose their jobs in a down economy, this is a case of economic Darwinism I can live with. (Thanks to schnauzerfan for the tip.)

If you’ve ever thought about adopting a retired racer, there has never been a better time.

Unclear on the concept of charitable fund-raising: In St. Louis, the Animal House Fund has been working hard to raise money for a new city pound. Wait, let me back up. They’ve been working hard to raise money. The whole city pound part of the equation seems to be less of a priority than originally believed. According to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, almost $500,000 has been spent by the Animal House Fund so far, and they’ve raised $600,000 since 2004. That means it cost them 83 cents to raise a dollar, with no dollars ever having been spent to start building the pound they were tasked with funding. To be sure, there were plenty of high profile, gala black tie affairs, oh yes.

And despite a full calendar of trivia nights, cocktail functions and other soirees, not a single brick was laid for the new pound. Organizers acknowledge that most of the money raised went into overhead and administrative fees. Political missteps — such as choosing a location that was later opposed by residents — also caused long delays.

Mayor Francis Slay, saying the city can no longer wait as animals suffer, earlier this month ordered the current pound closed. He has instructed the city to seek outside help for shelter services, in effect ending Animal House’s effort to build a new pound.[...] “So many good people were involved and nothing was happening,” said Suzanne Phelan, a former Animal House board member. “I got more and more frustrated.”

As well you should, Ms. Phelan. You, the good people and the animal community of greater St. Louis, were the victims of an old-fashioned boondoggle.

Lojack® for dogs: Do you have AT&T? Do you have a dog? If so, listen up. Our pal omidog says that AT&T is introducing collars that will track your dog, and send the pooch’s location to your wireless AT&T device. I use Verizon Wireless, so I’m outta luck, but all you iPhone and other AT&T aficionados, please feel free to supply a product review.

Let us define some terms, shall we? I loves me some YesBiscuit, and no more so than when Shirley puts on her language cap and stands on her little soapbox. From here on in, when I use the terms she mentions, you may assume that I mean them the way she defines them. Brava, Shirley. I am excerpting one of the (but perhaps not the) most wonderful snippets. You, gentle reader, must head over to YesBiscuit to savor the rest. The only thing I didn’t like about the post was that I didn’t write it myself.

Getting rid of pets – I am not the mob. I don’t get rid of my pets. I may place a pet in a new home with screened applicants but this is intended to be an “upgrade” for the pet by placing him in a more fitting situation. I’m not snuffing him out or even putting him out of sight, out of mind. I am hoping to improve the pet’s quality of life by placing him in an environment where he is more likely to thrive than if he stayed in my home. This is a good thing, not a cement-shoes-and-a-river thing.

Phatman on the road: You’re familiar with phatman, from badrap, right? He’s an irresistibly cute pit bull terrier, and he’s got a report from the road (well, technically, Cindy’s the reporter). We have pictures. I am envious of phatman for many reasons. First off, he’s more photogenic than I am. Also, he met some gorgeous horses on his trip, but mostly, in one of the pictures he’s posing in front of the Louisville Slugger Museum & Factory in Louisille, Kentucky. You see that big yellowish brown thing on the left side of the picture? That’s an enormous baseball bat (you can see it better here). I’ve always wanted to go there. Baseball season is about to start, and he was in Louisville, at a true baseball mecca (yes, also the home of Churchill Downs). He’s a lucky dog, is all I’m saying.

The coolest, furriest dog to have in Beijing: Quick quiz: What’s the trendy dog to have today in China’s growing community of the super rich? I’ll give you a few hints: it’s big. Actually, it’s huge. It’s very, very slobbery. It’s not known for being lovable. And it’s got more hair than any ten people you know. Give up? The Tibetan mastiff.

After splurging on real estate in Australia, American thoroughbreds and European designer fashions, China’s rich see the Tibetan mastiffs as a new status symbol. China is now home to an estimated 825,000 millionaires, its most in modern history, and its luxury goods market is one of the fastest growing in the world. Among the must-haves for rich men in northeast China, the official Xinhua News Agency recently said was a young beautiful wife, a Lamborghini and a Tibetan mastiff, “the bigger and more ferocious the better.”

Careful, though.

Passers-by were told only to admire the dogs from afar and not get near them because they’re hostile to strangers — all the better for protecting flocks and herders on the isolated Tibetan plateau, where they originated.

Yeah, don’t sign me up for one, thanks. However, thank you to Susan Fox for the story.

Note: Your trusty reporter is headed out on the road for the weekend. I’ll be meeting up with Dr. Becker, Gina, Liz and a few thousand of my closest new friends in the pet product community at the Global Pet Expo in sunny Orlando. Expect to hear from one or all of us at some point over the weekend, blogging on what we’ve found and especially like. Stay tuned.

Photo credits: Dogtrack art: Chris Morris, Las Vegas Sun. Phatman: badrap.com.

Filed under: animals: pets,animals:general,behavior,feral cats,Life,Media,medical,news,No Kill,Pet-lover life,products,The blogroll,Worth a click — David S. Greene @ 5:04 am

Comments (111)

111 Comments »

I am, on general principles, chary of any enterprise that appends the word “industry” to an activity that involves helpless creatures (shelter industry, greyhound racing industry, nursing home industry — hey, why not “orphanage industry?”)

Throw in the always-wholesome element of legal gambling controlled by organized crime, and sordid doesn’t begin to cover it.

So, greyhound racing — my first instinct is a cheery buh bye.

Except, what about the dogs?

Not the neutered retired racers as individuals. With enough resources and will devoted to them, almost all can become happy pets.

The breed. Millenia-old. Healthy, functional athletes that are still selected for a job that is pretty close (not exact) to the work their ancestors did for Odysseus.

Who will conserve this breed? What happens to those genetics?

The kennel clubs register almost no greyhounds, and those they do are decorative show dogs, not the inheritors of their progenitors’ mantle as coursing hunters.

I think if greyhound racing as part of the mob-controlled gambling industry had not risen up in this country and taken over that space, then some other form of sighthound racing — as a SPORT, not an occasion for petty vice — would have developed, a hobby for true lovers of the animals and the sport. But that never happened. The money choked the possibility.

Lure coursing is more of a pastime for most, not a serious breed selection tool on the order of what Schutzhund does for real German shepherds or field trials and hunt tests do for pointers and retrievers.

Will something rigorous, real, and widespread have a chance to hatch and grow in time to conserve the marvelous genetics of the racing greyhound?

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 25, 2010 @ 8:45 am
Somewhere I have a little tiny bat from my tour of the Louisville Slugger Museum. You should definitely try to get there sometime.

Comment by Kim Thornton — March 25, 2010 @ 10:55 am
I grew up loving greyhound racing. Dad and I went a couple of times a month every summer when I was a kid. He taught me to read a racing program and to handicap the dogs. He’d place his bets and mine, and was tickled for me on the occasions when I had better luck than he did. (Need I tell you that some of the more conservative members of the family were opposed to our hobby?)

I was horrified when I found out the likely fate of most of my fast friends, and while I won’t mourn when the last track closes, I too have to wonder what happens to a really awesome breed of dogs. They love to run, and damn, they are good at it.

Comment by schnauzerfan — March 25, 2010 @ 2:06 pm
I’d like to address the comments about the racing greyhound by ‘H. Houlihan’.

We certainly are in agreement that when it comes to the word ‘industry’ being connected to helpless animals, it is never a good thing.

Regarding the author’s opinion about the preservation of the breed…

With all due respect, I personally believe that conservation and exploitation are two different things.

There are many dog breeds popular today that are no longer used for their original ‘purpose’ – i.e. dachshunds no longer badger hunt, bully breeds no longer are used for bull baiting (thank goodness). Greyhounds shouldn’t have to race or lure course to remain the wonderful dogs they are, and to retain their athleticism as individuals or as a breed.

Regarding the ‘marvelous genetics of the racing greyhound’ and the reference to greyhounds as ‘healthy, functional athletes’…

While as a general rule, NGA (racing) greyhounds do have marvelous temperaments, I am not so sure that the same could be accurately said of their health. One of the most respected greyhound vets in the country, Dr. Couto at OSU, has conducted extensive research on greyhounds. He has determined that NGA greyhounds are in the top ten list of large breed dogs for susceptibility to several types of cancer. Additionally, osteosarcoma (bone cancer) is extremely prevalent in NGA greyhounds – yet in a survey of owners of 900 AKC greyhounds, there was 0% of occurrence of osteosarcoma. Zero percent. The average age of NGA greyhounds when diagnosed with osteosarcoma is just 6-8 years old.

The breeding of NGA greyhounds focuses on speed. It doesn’t much matter to a racing breeder if certain breeding lines pre-dispose the dogs they breed to health issues that will occur in later years – well past the years a racing greyhound is competitive (2-5 years old).

The sire of three of my retired racers died at the age of just 9 of heart failure in 2007, a serious (fatal) health condition that I would consider having a good chance of being passed to progeny. Yet frozen semen from him is still available for purchase today, and hundreds of puppies have been bred and been registered in the NGA’s breed registry since his untimely death.

Personally, I would give speed and athleticism up any day of the week in exchange for better health in my greyhounds.

For more information about the cruel and inhumane sport of dog racing, please visit http://www.GREY2KUSA.org.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 25, 2010 @ 4:31 pm
Personally, I would give speed and athleticism up any day of the week in exchange for better health in my greyhounds.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 25, 2010

Are these mutually exclusive? Do you have to give up speed and athleticism for better health? Because from what I’ve seen, when working dogs don’t have jobs any more, they almost never gain good health …. look at almost any show breed for examples, and they are countless.

Once you give up speed and athleticism, what the hell do you have, anyway? Surely not a greyhound, or at least not a greyhound in anything but looks only.

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 25, 2010 @ 4:38 pm
The health problems Ms. Krebs recounts for racing greyhounds are certainly troubling, and I would argue, evidence of what happens when living beings become industrial cogs.

Did I imply that I thought industrial greyhound racing conducted as a gambling enterprise by mobsters and wannabe profiteers was a good thing for dogs?

But the fact is, genetic flaws such as cancers can be addressed in a conservation breeding program. They may require outcrosses (and in this case, the isolated gene pool of kennel club greyhounds may become a resource, as may other sighthound breeds), but they can be addressed given enough buy-in from breeders.

Osteosarcoma is such a common cancer in very large, long-legged dogs that the absence you report in the show greys is far more noteworthy than its prevalence in racers.

There are things I’d trade to have your breed’s incidence of hip dysplasia in mine. Since I work my dogs and breed them for others who do, their ability to do that work is not one of those negotiable things.

You may be happy to trade athletic function for another metric of health, as your interest is in the dogs as pets. But others who know that what a dog does is what he is disagree.

I just hope there are enough of them to do it right.

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 25, 2010 @ 6:01 pm
David, the FDA outlines plans to make products safe, according to Matthew Daly of the Associated Press. The EPa report on protecting pets websight is http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/health/pets.htm.

The Life section of the Coloradoan (Ft. Collins, CO) features how products intended to treat cats and dogs for fleas and ticks kill hundreds of pets each year and injure tens of thousands, so says the EPA.

Comment by Evelyn — March 25, 2010 @ 6:53 pm
The article is called Tick treatment under scrutiny.

You said to post new news here. This is the best I can do, although it is not relevant to your posting. However, I was shocked when I saw the article!

Comment by Evelyn — March 25, 2010 @ 6:57 pm
Thanks, Evelyn!

Comment by David S. Greene — March 25, 2010 @ 6:58 pm
‘Personally, I would give speed and athleticism up any day of the week in exchange for better health in my greyhounds.’ - Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 25, 2010

Gina Spadafori in response: ‘Are these mutually exclusive? Do you have to give up speed and athleticism for better health? Because from what I’ve seen, when working dogs don’t have jobs any more, they almost never gain good health …. look at almost any show breed for examples, and they are countless.’ –

Ms. Spadafori - in answer to your question whether speed & athleticism and good health are mutually exclusive -

You might want to direct that question to racing greyhound breeders. I don’t breed racing greyhounds. I adopt ones that the breeders discard, because they can’t make money off of them any more.

From what I can tell, in NGA (racing) greyhounds, the answer is yes - they are mutually exclusive. NGA greyhounds may be functional (for the racing industry), but they aren’t all that healthy. As the adopter of 6 retired racers in 7 years (and I’m sure I will adopt many more), I would be very happy if the answer was different.

‘Once you give up speed and athleticism, what the hell do you have, anyway? Surely not a greyhound, or at least not a greyhound in anything but looks only.’ - Gina Spadafori — March 25, 2010

What the hell do I have, anyway? I don’t know - maybe I would have healthy greyhounds.

Or a few mutts from the pound. (Because the thousands of surplus, ‘retired’ racing greyhounds that enter the adoption system every year add to the homeless pet population.)

One of my greys has been off the track for nearly a year, the other two have been done racing since 2006 and 2008. My boy, who isn’t even 5 yet, already has arthritis in his right elbow - the result of a racing injury, according to my vet. I can promise you, they are all fit and happy. And they don’t live in cages 20+ hours per day (zero, in fact), they don’t have to chase a lure around an oval twice a week with 7 other dogs (risking injury and death), and they don’t have to worry about getting good food or proper health care.

They also don’t have to worry about having a needle stuck in their veins, or a bullet put in their heads, for not being fast enough.

Oh, and they happen to love my sofas and my bed.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 25, 2010 @ 8:52 pm
H. Houlahan (I’m sorry I misspelled your name previously) -

Regarding osteosarcoma in large, long-legged dogs - and hip dysplasia:

I adopted a Rottweiler at the age of 3, and managed her hip dysplasia for nearly 8 years. Osteosarcoma was what ended her life, at the age of almost 11.

Her name was Katie. I adored her, and I miss her every day. And all of the people who came to know her, came to think of the Rottweiler breed in a different light, thanks to her loving nature and gentle disposition. I was proud to spend most of her life with her. But when she passed, I couldn’t see myself adopting another Rottie, because of the health issues. Expensive for me, and difficult for both of us.

Retired racing greyhounds are touted as being healthy and long-lived for a large breed. This is a part of the defense for greyhound racing as an industry. I can only say that I think the evidence speaks otherwise.

You are right - those who view dogs strictly as ‘pets’, and those for whom a dog’s ‘ability to do that work is not one of those negotiable things’, have different expectations. But I think what a dog does, doesn’t really matter, if he isn’t.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree on that point. :-)

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 25, 2010 @ 9:18 pm
“One of the most respected greyhound vets in the country, Dr. Couto at OSU, has conducted extensive research on greyhounds. He has determined that NGA greyhounds are in the top ten list of large breed dogs for susceptibility to several types of cancer.” comment from Jennifer Krebs

Jennifer, I also have retired racers and I’ve followed Dr. Couto’s work (although I can’t say I understand all the medical details) on osteosarcoma. I haven’t seen any work by him on any other cancers in NGA dogs, and I’m calling you on your comment about this ‘top ten list’ concerning several types of cancer. Yes, bone cancer is the biggest problem in racers - but it’s also in the top 3 health concerns of most other large, long legged dogs and lots of dogs who get it may die before they are 10, it doesn’t mean it’s a death sentence for every greyhound. Whether the sire of several of your dogs died at 9 from heart failure (exactly what kind of heart issues where determined to cause this?), does not mean that it was something that was/will be passed onto all or any offspring. Unless you can find out what a large sample of his offspring died off, no one can know that.

And you are either misunderstanding or purposefully avoiding Heather’s concern about what will happen to the breed as a whole when racing ends. As the number of farms(kennels) decrease, the number of dogs racing decreases and the number of dogs available for adoption decreases. Once the dogs aren’t being raced, do you honestly think those farms(kennels) will keep breeding dogs for the pet market? Dog forbid if they do, because that’s a puppy mill situation waiting to happen. At least the farm(kennels) give the dogs socialization and exercise while they grow in the hopes they might make it to the track.

AKC greyhounds are never going to be able to be bred in numbers to fill the homes who have learned to love greys and want to keep adopting them. Because they have such a small gene pool to start from, if they tried, the chances of genetic mutations increasing to problematic conditions will follow. If you think that your dogs prolific sire passed down any problems, just wait to see what happens when there’s 1/100th of the numbers of sires to start with without racing greyhounds in the mix.

Comment by KateH — March 25, 2010 @ 10:34 pm
All the adoption sites I’ve found say that track greyhounds can be expected to live 12-14 years.

That’s a long time for a dog that big.

This is consistent with my greyhound-owning clients’ experiences. Their dogs seem to live forever, and contentedly.

When a breed has a high incidence of one discrete health problem, it’s very easy to lose the forest for one leaf on one tree. In my breed, it’s tempting to sight in on the widespread problem of CHD, and forget about temperament, working ability, and all the good stuff that we generally *do* have, and had better not lose in the quest for OFA clearance.

I am not convinced that NGA greyhounds are an unhealthy gene pool because they have a high incidence of one kind of cancer.

I have no reason to think that NGA breeders select for longevity (and name me one breed community — not individual, but a whole club — that DOES, dammit), or that they even care. Again, I am chary on principle of the primacy of the profit motive in this “industry.”

But the fact is, selecting for athletic ability and vigor has a strong correlation with selecting for general health. And my understanding of breeding practices in the NGA suggests that most animals that are bred are bred as mature dogs, not youngsters (as is the case with many show dogs and almost all BYBs). That has a *huge* effect on longevity, especially over many generations.

Stop that rigorous selection and you lose so much so fast, and you are unlikely to EVER get it back.

Everybody dies of *something.*

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 26, 2010 @ 12:38 am
What the hell do I have, anyway? I don’t know - maybe I would have healthy greyhounds.

Or a few mutts from the pound. (Because the thousands of surplus, ‘retired’ racing greyhounds that enter the adoption system every year add to the homeless pet population.)

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 25, 2010

So really, you’re not only happy to give up health and athleticism, but greyhounds, because if they were all gone, people would run to so get something else from the shelter, maybe a pit bull.

Like Heather, I am not saying racing for profit is the way to preserve a breed. But dying out isn’t the way, either, nor is becoming a 40 mph couch potato.

The end of gambling on greyhound racing is not going to break my heart. But losing another of our historic working breeds is. “Becoming a pet” is the surest way I know for a working breed to become a shell of what it was, a hollow form with nothing that made it the dog it used to be.

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 26, 2010 @ 3:25 am
Gina, what are you doing up at 3:25 am? (That is the time of your comment).

Comment by Evelyn — March 26, 2010 @ 6:42 am
There is a three-hour difference in the time zone between California and Florida so it must take a while to adapt—the weather must be warm in Orlando, though, just like Calif.

Comment by Evelyn — March 26, 2010 @ 6:48 am
KateH –
Have you been to one of Dr. Couto’s presentations? I attended one this past November. He presented quite a bit of information about cancers in NGA greys. One of his slides was of the 10 large breeds that have the highest rate of cancer. NGA greys were on it, near the top in fact.

In addition to osteosarcoma in NGA greys and not AKC greys, a number of other cancers are more prevalent in NGA greys than in AKC greys. Several other health conditions are more common in NGA greys than in AKC greys, including bleeding disorders, stroke, arthritis and corns.
Here’s a link to a recent edition of the newsletter the OSU Health and Wellness Program puts out quarterly that discusses some of his findings: http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/.....ng2009.pdf
Regarding the concerns expressed about what will happen to the breed when racing ends, I neither misunderstood nor purposely avoided them. I stated my opinions on that. Many breeds popular today don’t do what they were originally designed to do. Keeping a cruel industry intact to preserve a breed certainly isn’t the answer. And the comments made that racing greyhounds are healthier than AKC greys is completely false.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 26, 2010 @ 8:10 am
H. Houlahan - I would contend that the estimate of track greyhounds’ life span being 12-14 years is high. I did have one grey pass at the age of 13. I’ve also lost one to osteosarcoma at 10 and another to a massive stroke at the age of 3. I have a friend who just lost a 4 year old to a tumor around the spinal cord. I know of many people who have lost greys to osteosarcoma at 6, 7 or 8 years old. It would be interesting to poll owners of retired racers about their dogs’ life spans. I’d bet that a minority reach 12-14.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 26, 2010 @ 8:17 am
comment by Gina Spadafori - ‘So really, you’re not only happy to give up health and athleticism, but greyhounds, because if they were all gone, people would run to so get something else from the shelter, maybe a pit bull.’

What I stated was: ‘Greyhounds shouldn’t have to race or lure course to remain the wonderful dogs they are, and to retain their athleticism as individuals or as a breed.’

I stated that the breeding of NGA greyhounds focuses on athleticism, not health.

I didn’t state I am happy to give up health – I stated I would prefer it if I had to choose.

The assertion that NGA greyhounds are healthier than AKC greys is false. They have a number of health issues that AKC greys do not, and there are a few conditions AKC greys have that NGA greys do not. One is not healthier than the other.

And I happen to like pit bulls.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 26, 2010 @ 8:27 am
Heather:
>Schutzhund does for real German shepherds or field trials and hunt tests do for pointers and retrievers.

Herding trials are conspicuously absent. Why is that?

I contend that in my breed herding trials have pared down genetic diversity as fast and as far as other endeavors that are mocked by those passionate about “work.”

A diversity of interests is required for a diverse gene pool.

>Will something rigorous, real, and widespread have a chance to hatch and grow in time to conserve the marvelous genetics

Those three are most likely necessary, but are they sufficient? Herding trials are rigorous, real, and widespread, but the culture has adopted breeding decisions that demonstrate kennel blindness, and an extreme popular sire effect, generation after generation.

Add to this a healthy disdain for any other activity that would grow or maintain a diverse gene pool.

There will be no one solution, no one estate, for the Grey Hound.

Comment by Christopher@BorderWars — March 26, 2010 @ 8:50 am
‘Greyhounds shouldn’t have to race or lure course to remain the wonderful dogs they are, and to retain their athleticism as individuals or as a breed.’

And my question remains: How do you plan to do that? Because if a breed doesn’t work it soon loses its ability to do that work.

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 26, 2010 @ 10:36 am
“in a survey of owners of 900 AKC greyhounds, there was 0% of occurrence of osteosarcoma. Zero percent.”

This claim prompts a few comments:

1) Please point us to the study report where these findings can be found. All I can find on the AKC GH club website is a blank form for a GH health study. A form which, BTW, has the makings of a poor breed health survey.

2) Given that AKC registers fewer than 200 GHs per year, a health survey that included results from 900 AKC registered GHs would involve an unprecedented percentage of this small population.

3) Zero cases of OS in a representative population of 900 tall breed dogs does not seem credible.

Comment by LauraS — March 26, 2010 @ 12:26 pm
Again, everybody dies of something.

In my family, people die of heart disease and/or diabetes in their mid-70’s.

In my husband’s family, cancer in their late 70’s or 80’s.

So they have a higher rate of cancer. Almost no cancer in my family. Does his family have a “genetic problem?” Are they unhealthy?

His aunt who died young, chain-smoker, lung cancer — genetically defective? Her death really sticks out in everyone’s mind, it was a huge trauma when she left three orphans and had such a hard dying. But I don’t think the lesson there is about her genes, or points to a longevity problem or general ill-health in that family.

I’m sorry that you’ve lost dogs young. But the plural of anecdote is not data. Are you saying that ALL of the greyhound rescue websites are just lying when they cite 12-14 (or in some cases 12-15) years as a life expectancy?

Since you don’t care about the breed-specific function of your dogs, are not a breeder or breed conservator, seem to think that racing or coursing are at best an imposition on the animals and perhaps some form of cruelty, then I’d suggest that you, personally, will not suffer at all from the total extinction of the greyhound breed. You’d be just as happy with any dog that likes sofas.

That doesn’t mean that the possible extinction of the functional athlete is no loss to anyone.

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 26, 2010 @ 1:09 pm
Donald McCaig said “you can’t serve two masters” and I wonder, are racing performance and health really fully aligned? Are they the same master?

I suggest not.

Any disease that would not impede a racing Greyhound before its career is over would not be selected against. If racing Greyhounds are generally retired by 2 years of age, really now, what diseases ARE selected against?

Performance isn’t a magical diagnosis tool, nor a cure for disease.

If we want healthy performance dogs, we have to satisfy two masters. We have to.

Comment by Christopher@BorderWars — March 26, 2010 @ 1:11 pm
“Because there is no racing without betting.” -Jay Trotter, “Let It Ride”

I can’t think of any other sport other than racing that will cause people to breed the working greyhound as we see it today. I’m really sorry I never heard the greyhound people talk about “cleaning up the sport” the way I hear horse racing people talking about it. I think dog racing can be humane. I think horse racing can be humane. The sweetest dog I have ever known was an off the track greyhound. She lived to be 14. It was a joy to watch her run on the beach. The look of sheer bliss on her face was beautiful.

Comment by C.L.H. — March 26, 2010 @ 2:29 pm
Funny, for a blog called Pet Connection, it sure seems there are a lot of people on here that focus on their dog breeds’ ability to ‘work’. I’ve certainly encountered in past debates this sort of disdain ‘working dog people’ have for ‘pet people’. I’ve also previously encountered the characterization of AKC greyhounds as inferior to NGA greyhounds. My initial, primary point was that when it comes to health, one is not superior to the other.

I work to end racing, because it’s cruel and inhumane. It is not ‘perhaps some form of cruelty’ - it IS cruelty.

Dog racing is current day man’s exploitation of the greyhound breed. It didn’t even exist in its current form in America until the 1920’s. Today, greyhounds are raced around an oval after an artificial lure – a man-made environment that leads to one of the most common injuries in greyhound racing – broken hocks – and is the cause of the most catastrophic injuries (and fatalities) – collisions. It is a far cry from the breed’s original purpose from thousands of years ago – hunting prey across open fields or plains. I have to wonder if the people whose greyhounds served that purpose several thousand years ago would consider today’s NGA greyhounds inferior to theirs.

Again, plenty of breeds popular today no longer perform their original ‘jobs’. Why is the assumption that if dog racing ends, the breed will go extinct? I think that view is over-reactive and alarmist.

Should dog fighting be legal so pit bulls are sure to retain the characteristics that make them good at fighting?

Should bull baiting have continued so that bully breeds were guaranteed to retain the characteristics bred into them for that purpose?

Of course not. Society has deemed those sports are cruel, and enthusiasts of those breeds worked to keep those breeds in existence. The same will happen with greyhounds.

Laura S. – I stated that the studies done on health issues of NGA greyhounds and AKC greyhounds were conducted by Dr. Couto and his Greyhound Health and Wellness Program at OSU. Here’s the site: http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/1871.htm . Here’s a link to his study of NGA greyhounds: http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/.....Survey.pdf . His study of AKC greyhounds doesn’t seem to be on the site, details of which he shared at the seminar I attended 4 months ago. I’m sure you could contact them, if you’re interested, and obtain all of the information you seek.

comment by H. Houlahan – ‘Are you saying that ALL of the greyhound rescue websites are just lying when they cite 12-14 (or in some cases 12-15) years as a life expectancy?’

Nope, I didn’t say that at all.
I wrote ‘I would contend that the estimate of track greyhounds’ life span being 12 - 14 years is high’ and ‘I’d bet that a minority reach 12 -14.’ That is a personal opinion based on the collective knowledge of the ages and causes of many racing greyhounds’ deaths. That knowledge comes from my involvement in adopting greyhounds since 2003 – it includes many greyhound friends and acquaintances, involvement with three different adoption groups, and participation in several greyhound discussion forums, two of which have several thousand members each.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 26, 2010 @ 2:29 pm
I just realized that the Gasconade shelter in St. Louis, MO that the Animal House fundraising group was supposed to be raining $$$ to replace is none other than the shelter where Quentin the Miracle Dog survived being gassed back in 2003. Sorry to be such a gas chamber head, but I had ordered Randy Grim’s book about Quentin from Amazon and it just arrived today. This dawned on me when I read the article referenced here and saw quotes from Mayor Slay, who is also mentioned in the book. Been Mayor for a while, I guess. So they closed their chamber, but the place is still a dump and a slaughterhouse, and people charged with improving the situation are serving themselves rather than getting actual work done. I do hope that they get their act together asap. Odd that they didn’t even mention the Gasconade pound’s notable history in the article. And I was kinda ticked that Grim’s book didn’t even mention Tompkins County SPCA in its list of No Kill organizations, even though the book was published in 2005. I know the list wasn’t complete, but that was a serious omission.

Comment by Valerie — March 26, 2010 @ 2:36 pm
Jennifer, you are new here, and you have no idea of the years of discussions that have gone on here before. All our dogs — even the working ones — are pets.

But many of us want more from ourselves and our dogs than couch potato lives. And we want dogs capable of doing more, too.

Life isn’t just about being alive. It’s about living life fully. I honestly believe dogs get that, too.

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 26, 2010 @ 6:08 pm
“the comments made that racing greyhounds are healthier than AKC greys is completely false.”

You keep saying that, but have provided no evidence.

Comment by LauraS — March 26, 2010 @ 9:09 pm
Gina - maybe you should clarify your view of the difference between ‘working dogs’ and ‘pets’. My ‘couch potato’ pets are plenty fit, and more than happy. In fact, I happened to look at some pictures of our most recent adoptee tonight from the day I picked him up off the track. He is in better muscular form now than he was then. He is certainly in better mental health now, his coat is soft and shiny today (not course and urine-stained as it was that day on the track), and he actually knows now how to wag his tail and play with toys. Is he no longer a working dog? Or is he just a pet?

I am new to this blog, but not new to the arguments defending a cruel industry under the guise of preserving breed ideals.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 26, 2010 @ 10:00 pm
Laura -

The evidence is not mine to provide or present. I have referred you to links to Dr. Couto’s OSU Greyhound Health and Wellness Program, and to his health study of 747 NGA greyhounds. I have told you that he has done a similar study of AKC greyhounds, the results of which I’m sure GHWP would be happy to provide you. I have given you my interpretation of his studies, and my personal opinion based on my involvement with retired racing greyhounds and their owners since 2003. If you are so interested in proving that NGA greyhounds are healthier than AKC greyhounds, why don’t you do your own research, and consult with Dr. Couto on his studies, and advise us what your conclusion is.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 26, 2010 @ 10:15 pm
Jennifer, I have expressed no interest in “proving that NGA greyhounds are healthier than AKC greyhounds”.

I am interested in breed health surveys in part because my breed club will shortly be doing one for our breed. I’ve collected a number of breed health surveys to assist in this effort.

Breed health surveys that allow for comparisons of different sub-populations within a breed are unusual and of interest to me.

In the case of AKC greyhound vs. NGA greyhound health, you have made a number of questionable statements in this discussion, which elicit doubts about your objectivity.

I requested that the GHWP email me a copy of their AKC greyhound health study earlier today.

Comment by LauraS — March 26, 2010 @ 11:16 pm
Laura - the statements I’ve made that you find ‘questionable’ are from notes I took directly from Dr. Couto’s presentation four months ago. Again, you can verify the accuracy directly from the source of the information, which you’ve now stated that you have contacted. I am sure that those involved with the Greyhound Health and Wellness Program at OSU will be very responsive and happy to share their research. I’ll look forward to hearing from you about the results of your inquiry.

Since this comment thread has been primarily about greyhounds and greyhound racing, and since you’ve now stated that you have ‘no interest in proving that NGA greyhounds are healthier than AKC greyhounds’ -
I’m wondering - what is ‘your breed’?
What experience with greyhounds do you have?
I’m just curious.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 27, 2010 @ 12:07 am
I really don’t know how many times it has to be pointed out to you that no one here is mourning the end of greyhound racing. What we ARE questioning is that if there will be a way for the breed to continue with all its assets preserved — including the interest and ability to be a real coursing hound.

And no, the fact that your dogs are “fit” and “wag their tails” doesn’t make them sighthounds. It makes them healthy, happy pets — not “just pets” which is a phrase we don’t utter here and that you’ve put in our mouths. (You’re awfully big on broad brush assumptions, including the one that paints all participants in greyhound racing as cruel.)

The people who are commenting on this thread love healthy, happy pets — we all have them — but we also fight to preserve the working ability of our dogs. You’re either missing or ignoring that point, focused as you are on your blinding hatred of greyhound racing.

It seems to me — and I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong — that you don’t care about greyhounds per se at all: You care about fighting cruelty and about individuals dogs caught in a system that has had more than its share of problems in caring for the animals in the sport. In other words, if there were no greyhound racing for you to rail against, you’d possibly be saving sled dogs and railing against that, instead.

What we’re asking — and you have yet to answer — is if once greyhound racing is gone there is a way to keep what truly is unique about the greyhound alive. That’s NOT just “looking” like a greyhound but actually working as a coursing hound.

As for what dogs love, well, if actually worked your dogs, you’d know that nothing makes a dog happier than doing what it was bred to do. The greyhound was bred to run, and no matter how “fit” your dogs are and how they now like “toys,” I can tell you that the heart, soul and mind of them is still fully engaged only when they are running after something at full speed.

To have a wide variety of beloved pets that “look” like their working ancestors is to lose something very important. To the dogs themselves, and to our own kind as well.

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 27, 2010 @ 2:50 am
Although I’m not as knowledgeable as some here are about the NGA vs. AKC greyhounds, as someone who loves a lurcher, I also wish that there were more lure coursing opportunities available, in general. It seems as if in the UK events for lurchers and greyhounds are much more common?

Also, the lure coursing events I have been able to find online were only open to greyhounds.

I have also worried about what will happen to the racing greyhound, as a breed, once all of the tracks are closed. Although many of the dogs live/d in deplorable conditions, which is obviously awful and needed to be changed, I have rarely seen as much visible joy as I do when my lurcher is running. It would be a terrible loss to have no more racing greyhounds.

Comment by Eliblu — March 27, 2010 @ 6:44 am
Jennifer, you haven’t answered my question about where greyhounds will come from after all the tracks close. The farm kennels have been decreasing in numbers and in the numbers of dogs bred. The people who run the breeding and take care of the puppies, making sure they are all handled several times a day, given exercise time, and evaluated (as well as cleaning and feeding chores), will have no incentive to continue the breeding without a racing market. Dog forbid if there end up being a few kennels that try to breed only for a pet for those who’ve fallen in love with the breed only in the last 20 years. Those people don’t generally DO anything with their dogs that involves using the dog’s physical skills. They love the dog for its lovely temperment. A farm kennel that might end up breeding for pet quality alone will have little to no incentive to do the extensive handling that keeps greyhounds (generally) so acquiecent to people nor will they allow puppies to exercise as they do now, letting them grown in this unique setting until they are at least a year old before they go out for serious training (greys don’t race until they are 18 months old). They will end up in the same puppy mill situation that turns out sickly, unsocialized puppies at 6-8 weeks old, and that is NOT going to keep their temperments or their health up to the levels they are at now. Yes, there are sires that are used a LOT, but most females, if they are bred, only have 4 litters their whole lives (yes, there are those who have more, and those who have fewer litters) and they don’t start that until they’re at least 3 years old, often later. In a puppymill situation you know that’s going to seem like heaven to a bitch that will be treated as nothing other than a babymaking machine with litters twice a year from the time they’re 6 months old.

I also have a problem with racing when the dog’s safety isn’t the number one concern. I couldn’t adopt 2 greys that I dearly wanted because they both died on the track, 1 from a bad hock break and 1 from a broken back. The problem is first of all bad tracks and then it’s the fact that some people suck because they don’t want to help dogs, especially injured ones get proper care and find homes. The suckiest among that group are the ones most likely to decide that puppymilling greyhounds for pet homes will be acceptable. The people in the greyhound racing world who care about their dogs - and there are many who really do, no matter what you might think - won’t breed the dogs anymore, or there’s the very small chance that they’ll become like AKC breeders, with 1 or 2 dogs at most, producing 6-8 puppies every other year or so. Then, you’re right, the rest of us who have learned to love the breed (I’ve had them since 1996, and my 13 year old very healthy female waves her paw at you, as done my 10 year old very healthy male), will have to adopt pit bulls or something, because the chances of getting a wonderful, sweet, funny, and relatively healthy greyhound will be very low because they just won’t be bred in decent numbers anymore. Oh, and yes, I’ve met Dr. Couto and Dr. Feeman and spoken with them several times and read the GHWP studies at least every 6 months to see what’s going on, tyvm.

Comment by KateH — March 27, 2010 @ 6:48 am
Kate and Gina -

You keep asking the same question and saying I am not answering it. What will happen to greyhounds when racing is no more?

And again, I will say in answer that plenty of breeds popular today no longer perform their original ‘jobs’.

Today’s racing greyhound isn’t performing its original ‘job’.

Enthusiasts of certain breeds have worked to keep those breeds in existence. The same will happen with greyhounds.

Gina, you wrote that I am ‘awfully big on broad brush assumptions, including the one that paints all participants in greyhound racing as cruel.’ I’ve never stated anything of the sort. I stated, very clearly, that dog racing is cruel. You assume that I think that. You’re make lots of assumptions about me, and about the lives my dogs have and that the ‘soul and mind of them is still fully engaged only when they are running after something at full speed.’ Lots of broad brush assumptions on your part. Your posts have gone from attacking the message to attacking the messenger.

Kate, regarding your question about where greyhounds will come from when the farms close – I don’t know the answer to that, any more than I know where retrievers come from, or Labradors or dachshunds or poodles. There are millions of animals euthanized in shelters every year. My personal choice is to adopt a homeless pet rather then go out and buy a puppy from a breeder. I leave breeding to other people, along with the pursuit of pedigrees and breed traits. I loved my Rottie. I’ve loved my greys. I’d love a pit bull. I’d love a shaggy mutt that I pick up as a stray or adopt from a shelter. I love dogs for companionship. I don’t seek out certain breeds of dogs to do a certain thing or to be a certain way.

That said, I respect the right for people to love and seek out a certain breed because of its attributes, and the right to breed those dogs and attempt to preserve those traits.

Dog racing isn’t about preservation of the greyhound breed. It’s about breeding thousands of dogs every year and producing the ones that run the fastest. The breeding of greyhounds to race is about money – pure and simple.

Chris’ previous post with the following statement said it perfectly: ‘Any disease that would not impede a racing Greyhound before its career is over would not be selected against. If racing Greyhounds are generally retired by 2 years of age, really now, what diseases ARE selected against?’ I would suggest there aren’t any.’

Responsible breeders of other breeds try to avoid the continuance of health conditions by not breeding affected dogs – hip dysplasia, heart conditions, etc. As a general rule, what efforts by NGA greyhound breeders have been made to find out what health conditions/diseases their dogs are experiencing years after their racing careers are over and trying to ‘breed out’ those issues? Are they avoiding the breeding of certain lines because they are pre-disposed to various cancers or heart conditions or bleeding disorders? I would say not.

I think that part of preserving a breed should include a focus on health. I believe that focus has been close to non-existent in NGA greys. As a result, touting them as the breed standard for greyhounds is, I think, irresponsible, because along with the NGA greyhounds’ athleticism comes health issues that have gone virtually unchecked.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 27, 2010 @ 8:45 am
Laura - the statements I’ve made that you find ‘questionable’ are from notes I took directly from Dr. Couto’s presentation four months ago.

Jennifer, I find a number of your statements here to be questionable. Among these questionable statements are your ridiculous and inaccurate declarations about what I think, and what I’m trying to ‘prove’. Please stop doing that.

I do not have greyhounds. My breeds are the English shepherd and German shepherd dog, though I work with and help train a number of other breeds (and mixes) in K9 SAR.

Comment by LauraS — March 27, 2010 @ 8:56 am
“Keeping a breed in existence” as a dog who “looks” like the working dog it used to be isn’t the same as preserving the breed. You don’t seem to be getting that, and I’m done trying.

There’s no reason why a dog can’t be bred in a way to preserve its natural working abilities and be healthy as well. No, you don’t need the racing greyhound industry to do that, but let me tell you the AKC isn’t doing a great job of it, either.

That’s the point. If there’s no working venue for a greyhound, what will happen to the breed?

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 27, 2010 @ 9:18 am
I think Jennifer has made it absolutely clear that she doesn’t give a flying rat’s fanny what happens to the breed, and would not be bothered if there were no more greyhounds in 20 years.

She says she cares about the welfare of individual dogs, as dogs and as pets, and I believe her. And there’s nothing wrong with that. That describes most pet owners, and is not an ethically inferior stance.

But it does not qualify her to hold forth on either the worthiness or the methods of conserving functional breeds.

I have this definite feeling that those of us who DO care about conserving functional breeds are supposed to feel defensive and justify that value system, as morally inferior to just loving all dogs for being dogs, and asking nothing more from them than companionship and generic dogginess.

Well, I don’t accept the premise that an interest in genetic conservation, and the commitment to offering individual dogs robust opportunities to gratify and express the various drives and talents that are thereby conserved, is a morally inferior stance to one that regards all dogs as interchangeable love objects.

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 27, 2010 @ 5:14 pm
Jennifer Krebs has been correct in her statements about the health of racing greyhounds.
Dr. Couto is THE authority on this subject. We’ve gone over this on other forums. And I read last fall about a study from a Florida university that found no cases of osteosarcoma in “AKC” registered greys.
But I’m no fan at all of the AKC either. We DO NOT need the AKC or some of the other similar clubs or greyhound racing to breed dogs.
The fact that racing greyhounds have THE highest rate of osteosarcoma of any breed of dog - including other large breeds - is yet another indictment of the industry.
The good breeders shut off the breeding of dogs that have serious health issues in their lineage.
In the case of retired racing dogs, those of us who rescue them are left to deal with the high rate of cancers and other ailments.
Two of the four greys my wife and I have rescued have faced serious cancer battles and two of the four have had emotional issues clearly brought on from their racing days.
(One, we were told was rescued from a trainer who often kicked him when he didn’t perform up to his standards.)
And there is no doubt the greyhound can go on without racing. To state otherwise has no basis in logic. Other breeds - outside their so-called original working “jobs” - have gone on through the work of quality breeders.
In fact, quality breeders can take steps to avoid the higher rates of cancers. Take out the No. 1 priority of the racing industry - profit on winning races through gambling dollars - and this work on breeding healthier greyhounds can get started.
Plus, the “market” (I hate to use that term for dogs, but it makes a point here) for greys is there across the country now. And where there is a market, breeders will want to fill it.
It’s basic economics. But now, those homes are seeking to rescue racing greyhounds from the horrible life they leading.

Comment by Tom Grady — March 28, 2010 @ 4:23 am
And there is no doubt the greyhound can go on without racing. To state otherwise has no basis in logic. Other breeds - outside their so-called original working “jobs” - have gone on through the work of quality breeders.

A breed called the “greyhound” that looks like a greyhound can continue without racing, of that there is no doubt.

But you make the same point that the other posters does, that many breeds continue that have no work function.

The point we’ve been making here, those of us with dogs who can and do function both as pets and as working dogs, is that without some way to test for working ability, breeds quickly become incapable of doing those jobs.

In short, you get retrievers who don’t swim and aren’t interested in birds,herding dogs who can’t/won’t handle livestock and sighthounds who have no interest in coursing.

Without a job, greyhounds will become another variety of companion, as so many other breeds have become. A greyhound in name only, a nice dog to have around, but still … something gets lost.

That’s the point we’re making. Quite a few of us here believe that it’s the ability to do a job that defined the dog, not the name of the breed or the external appearance.

The heart of a dog is inside, and so it the mind. Those are the aspects we’re interested in, those of us who are passionate about preserving our heritage working breeds.

—
We DO NOT need the AKC or some of the other similar clubs or greyhound racing to breed dogs.

Comment by Tom Grady — March 28, 2010

No, but you do need a reason to breed, and goals to breed. For those of us here, “healthy” is the baseline all breeds should have, not a goal. The fact that decent health is not a baseline in purebred dogs is an international scandal.

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 28, 2010 @ 4:44 am
Gina,
I certainly respect your passion, but dogs should not be defined by their jobs.
Each dog, as is the case with each human on a more complex scale, has a unique sense of self-awareness. This state of consciousness is part of what defines an individual.
Sure, some dogs do love to hunt or herd, etc. That is absolutely true. But where many us draw the line is when the dogs or other animals are exploited for these purposes.
We can’t ignore what happens to thousands of racing greyhounds each year in order to maintain a breed line. It is far more logical to shut down this industry and seek better breeding methods and other means to achieve the goal you seek.
What we’re saying is the greyhound racing industry has proven it is not the entity to achieve these goals.
As one example, caging dogs for 20 hours or so each day has an adverse impact on their mental state. Dogs are emotional beings and no animal wants to be caged.

Comment by Tom Grady — March 28, 2010 @ 5:29 am
Gina,
You are so right about health being a baseline for breeding. And in so many cases, as it is with the racing industry, this is not happening.
There are good breeders out there for sure, who take overall health, cancer risks and issues such as hip deformities into account when breeding.
But too many ignore these issues.
The fact that racing greyhounds are firmly at the top of the list for osteosarcoma says it all.
And the point you make about purebred dogs is important, because I’ve heard industry insiders use the excuse - “But other large purebred dogs have cancers.”
The way so much of the breeding is going on, that would be like the Washington Nationals claiming they’re better than the Royals. It ain’t sayin’ much.
But again, there are a lot of quality breeders out there.

Comment by Tom Grady — March 28, 2010 @ 5:42 am
Again, and likely for the 1,000 time on this thread alone: No one is mourning the loss of organized greyhound racing.

“Sure, some dogs do love to hunt or herd, etc.” What, you think they just woke up one day and decided to take up a hobby? Let me know how many greyhounds want to dive into icy water to retrieve a bird. None? Oh, so I guess it’s not an individual choice based on “love,” huh?

A dog who “looks” like a working breed but can’t work is a pet. And that’s fine, we all have and love our pets. Those of us with working dogs consider them as FAMILY. But what ELSE is unique about working breeds besides a name and a look is worth preserving. That is quite different from preserving the greyhound racing industry, which is a point those of you who are blinded by hatred for this industry cannot seem to grasp.

Dogs as individuals should not be defined by their jobs. Once they’re born, they’re born with what their DNA provides them and all the love and training in the world can’t change that. But breeds should be defined by what they do, if we want to preserve important working heritage and the genetic diversity it represents.

It seems as if the greyhound racer rescuers represented by you and Jennifer would be happy to rescue this breed to extinction.

Those of us who value more than what a dog “looks like” — the classic AKC definition of breed, along with “paperwork,” real or counterfeit — would like to see the breed survive as it historically has been — a dog with a heart of a champion who is also beautiful and kind. A dog who loves the couch but also lives to run with the wind, heart pumping and legs flying in a glorious double-suspension gallop.

And by the way, you mention “logic” in your posts in a way that now has me convinced you don’t know what the word means. It doesn’t mean, “my opinion is correct.” The other word choice that’s interesting to me is “exploit,” which generally telegraphs a person who doesn’t understand how fully and truly engaged a dog is with every fiber of his being when working.

Humans don’t “make” dogs run, or herd or hunt. A working dog lives to work, and is so much more engaged as a dog than so many of our bored, fat and lonely pets. Best of both worlds? Working dogs who are family, which is what the people who are posting here have.

You two keep bringing up examples of poor treatment within the greyhound racing industry to argue your case. Problem is, we’re not arguing in defense of the greyhound racing industry. We’re advocating for greyhounds.

The industry is a goner, and no one here is that worked up about it. Losing what really makes a greyhound a greyhound? Now that would be a loss.

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 28, 2010 @ 5:44 am
Tom, what defines the different breeds, besides appearance?

If a dog looks like a Jack Russell, but has no prey drive, is it still a Jack Russell?

NONE of us here agree to the exploitation of dogs, but I for one want a terrier that is a terrier, not one that simply looks like a terrier. (Which is why I didn’t get mad at my schnauzer for taking off out of the yard yesterday after a rabbit - that’s what he is supposed to do, after all. In fact, he got pats and a “good boy” when he came back after the rabbit got away.)

That’s the sticking point I see in this discussion - those that insist of thinking of dogs only as pets (and anything else is exploitation) don’t give a damn about drives, or how a breeder (or buyer) is supposed to assess those drives.

Of course, there is always live coursing for sight hounds. No cages, no betting - just a dead hare (hopefully) at the end of the day. But we’ve had that conversation here before, and that’s “bad” too.

I guess we’re all just going to have to accept a world where there is a fantastic diversity of dog shapes, sizes and colours - but they are all the exact same temperament, because to test otherwise offends one person or another.

Earthdog, lure coursing, hell, even herding can offend sheep-lovers, I guess.

It’s stuff like this that is, IMO, more dangerous to the dog world that any kennel club or animal rights organizations - the average person not understanding what a real dog is, and what goes into creating that dog.

Comment by K.B. — March 28, 2010 @ 5:51 am
HH, Gina, David et alia, there is another side to racing, both amateur and commercial. There are many of us who believe racing can be done humanely and safely both on and off the track.
Don’t let Mr Grady or Ms Krebs’s viewpoint be the only one.
“Grey2K lies”. It’s a public group on FB.
http://www.facebook.com/home.p.....038;ref=ts
Got to go now, time to go exercise my exploited, abused amateur racing dogs as we have our first meet coming up next week and they need to be in good running shape!

Comment by Deb Moulton — March 28, 2010 @ 5:54 am
Gina,
Logic has nothing to do with my opinion.

Comment by Tom Grady — March 28, 2010 @ 7:28 am
I certainly respect your passion, but dogs should not be defined by their jobs.
Each dog, as is the case with each human on a more complex scale, has a unique sense of self-awareness. This state of consciousness is part of what defines an individual.

My border collie of beloved memory was a great pet for me in my teens and early twenties because of the same characteristics that made her near relatives good working herding dogs—the energy, the athleticism, the intelligence, the orientation towards working with and pleasing a human handler. We could play all day in the “wild” part of the local park, and I could teach her anything.

And my Chinese Crested is an equally excellent pet for me now—precisely because about the only things she has in common with my BC are intelligence and quickness to learn, and liking people. She does not have my BC’s work ethic, for which I am grateful every day. She enjoys long, leisurely walks—not long daily runs! And, her breed having been shipboard ratters before the career change to indoor companions, she doesn’t try to herd squirrels and chipmunks (yes, really!) but will happily kill careless small rodents.

If I had my BC today, she’d be a great therapy dog if sufficiently exercised, but I wouldn’t be able to exercise her enough not to be bouncing off the walls. For my Chinese Crested, she’s a great therapy dog AND it constitutes exercise for her—we get home and she sacks out for the rest of the day until her evening walk and dinnertime.

So, yeah, the working characteristics of the breed matter. They’re part of what makes them great pets—for the right people. A world in which the only significant differences between border collies, Chinese Cresteds, greyhounds, Labs, JRTs, and dachshunds was size and appearance would be a poorer world with really great pets for far fewer people.

No one’s arguing for the continuation of commercial greyhound racing. The people who love greyhounds, though, do want and need something that will select for the qualities of greyhounds and not just the characteristics of “good pets.”

Comment by Lis — March 28, 2010 @ 7:36 am
Gina,
Logic has nothing to do with my opinion.

Comment by Tom Grady — March 28, 2010

I’m so glad you agree.

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 28, 2010 @ 8:06 am
Gina asked me to comment, as I have sighthounds (Scottish Deerhounds and a Borzoi, not greyhounds, although I’m very familiar with greyhounds).

I didn’t comment before because others have made my point. There is nothing intrinsically wrong or exploitative about racing greyhounds. They love it. Abuses are abuses whether they happen in a private home or a greyhound kennel.

Taking work away from dogs who are hardwired to do that work is a form of cruelty itself.

Can we give greyhounds what they need and love without commercial greyhound racing? Sure. Open field coursing, competitive amateur (non-gambling) oval track racing, straight racing (LGRA), even lure coursing to a certain extent, all delight and entertain and test sighthounds including the greyhound. After all, none of the other sighthounds are professionally raced and many of them can still do the work for which they’re bred.

Without pro racing, there will be fewer greyhounds. I don’t see this becoming a breed bred for a pet market, as the puppies are gawky and, to many people, unappealing, the dogs when young are hard to give enough exercise to, they are difficult to put a reliable recall on, and much of their allure is that people want to rescue them.

Are greyhounds wonderful pets? Yes, they are, both because of their own breed-related nature and because they are socialized to so many different situations when bred for the track. I know lots of AKC greys, and they are virtually identical in temperament and personality to the NGA greys, although physically very different.

And both of them are virtually identical in temperament and personality to my own breed, the Scottish Deerhound.

And an NGA grey can kick a Deerhound or AKC grey’s butt in the field any day.

If you’re talking about work ability and excellence, losing pro racing will hurt the breed. But if you’re talking about making the dog happy and making him feel that his inner drive is being fulfilled, it can be done without pro racing. It just depends on how motivated the owner is to making sure those needs are met, the same challenge all sighthound owners face.

I just wish that we could have a thriving racing scene without abuses. I certainly know it’s possible, I just don’t know if it’s practical. But it’s not the racing, or the kenneling, that are the problem — it’s the abuses.

Okay, I just got back from a four mile hike with my new deerhound puppy. I have to have some coffee now, or I’m going to keel over. Hope this was reasonably coherent.

Comment by Christie Keith — March 28, 2010 @ 8:24 am
comments by Gina - ‘The point we’ve been making here, those of us with dogs who can and do function both as pets and as working dogs, is that without some way to test for working ability, breeds quickly become incapable of doing those jobs.
In short, you get retrievers who don’t swim and aren’t interested in birds, herding dogs who can’t/won’t handle livestock and sighthounds who have no interest in coursing.’

And there are plenty of NGA greyhounds who don’t have a high prey drive/chase instinct and don’t have an interest in running around an oval after a lure. For all of the touting of the NGA’s preserving the greyhound as ‘a heritage working breed’ - approximately half of retired racers can peaceably live with cats and small dogs. One racing trainer told me her opinion was that it might be as high 60%. That is why so many greyhounds never get past their maidens – and why so many greyhounds at 18 months to 2 years of age need rescue every year from dog racing.

Tom’s points about dogs being individuals mirror my own. Greyhounds aren’t mindless running machines that obsess about chasing things. All of my greys have had a low prey drive – obviously part of their selection as they have all lived with a cat. (In fact, I had a pet rat when I adopted my first greyhound, and she was terrified of her. When I took Maddie out of her cage, Condor left the room.) I had a Chow years ago that I can promise you wouldn’t have lived peaceably with a cat.

If the NGA is the standard for breeding the truest version of the ‘working’ greyhound, and part of that DNA should include prey drive/chase instinct, they are missing the mark about half of the time. All while ignoring the baseline of health (an ‘international scandal’, I believe Gina called it) and adding thousands of dogs every year to the homeless pet population.

Comments by Heather – ‘She says she cares about the welfare of individual dogs, as dogs and as pets, and I believe her. And there’s nothing wrong with that. That describes most pet owners, and is not an ethically inferior stance. But it does not qualify her to hold forth on either the worthiness or the methods of conserving functional breeds.’

I’ve not held forth on ‘either the worthiness or the methods of conserving functional breeds.’ I’ve held that NGA greyhounds are no healthier than AKC greyhounds (and in fact have a number of health issues that AKC greys do not) and that NGA breeding has not been in the interest of ‘preserving the heritage working breed’, but instead in the pursuit of money.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 8:32 am
Christie wrote - ‘Taking work away from dogs who are hardwired to do that work is a form of cruelty itself.’

I don’t consider myself cruel to my greyhounds because I don’t course them on the weekends or run them around an oval after a lure.

(Then again, I know I am just ‘the average person not understanding what a real dog is, and what goes into creating that dog’, according to K.B.)

My greyhounds are very happy having a big yard to romp in, a moderate walk every day, a 3-4 mile hike on every weekend the weather cooperates, and a nice leather sofa or a soft bed to sleep in at night. Oh, what a deprived life they lead without racing!

There are dogs of many different breeds, and as individuals, who need to be active - and many of those dogs who don’t get that become destructive. Walk into a local shelter and count the number of purebred Labradors there - dogs that their former owners probably spent hundreds of dollars on as puppies.

The purpose of many working dogs is no longer necessary in today’s society, and the number of people engaged in the activities for which the dogs were ‘created’ has greatly reduced. I would bet that the majority of the millions of dogs that end up dead every year at the pound are working breeds – which ‘average’ people go out and buy as cute little puppies and then dump when they eat their couches.

The tens of thousands of retired racers that have been adopted through the years have been adopted mostly by ‘average’ people – and many of those people have adopted multiples, as I have, because they fall in love with the breed. For many, their love of the breed isn’t about the ‘work’ greyhounds can do and/or did. Most aren’t going out and lure coursing or racing their adoptees every weekend. Those greyhounds aren’t climbing the walls and destroying things. Their love of the breed is about the temperament of the greyhound, and the ability to meet their dogs’ needs within the ‘average’ capabilities of the ‘pet person’, and having a content, loving companion.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 9:26 am
“The fact that racing greyhounds have THE highest rate of osteosarcoma of any breed of dog - including other large breeds - is yet another indictment of the industry.”

I say again, based on what data? This tendency to toss out unsubstantiated claims without proper citation or understanding may suffice on the Animal Rights forums frequented by ban greyhound racing activists, but it doesn’t cut the mustard on this blog.

It took me just a few minutes to locate data that discredits the claim “racing greyhounds have THE highest rate of osteosarcoma of any breed of dog”.

According to the OSU study of retired racing greyhounds that has been linked in this comment thread, 25% of these dogs died of osteosarcoma.

According to a UK study, 33.9% of KC Irish Wolfhounds died of osteosarcoma [1].
These are not professional racing dogs by breeding or vocation. Breeding dogs and running dogs for racing did not cause the high rate of OS in UK Irish Wolfhounds.

Osteosarcoma is a common cause of death of tall, large, and giant breeds [2]. Greyhounds are a tall breed.

It is laudable that there is a great concern about OS within Grey2KUSA and the greyhound adoption community. Does that mean greyhound adoption groups do not allow rescued greyhounds to be s/n before all the growth plates close in these dogs’ bones, i.e. around 2 years of age in tall breeds? Because to do otherwise greatly increases the lifetime risk of OS [3], a questionable practice in a population pre-disposed to OS.

Furthermore, the OSU study of retired racing greyhounds may not be a representative sample of the racing greyhound population. This sample may be biased toward dogs with health problems that caused them to be relinquished for adoption, such as the very orthopedic problems linked to higher rates of OS. In order to understand the rate of OS among racing greyhounds, a more representative sample might be needed. There may also be other biases in the sample population, which OSU acknowledged in their study report “these Greyhounds may not be representative of the general population of retired racers in the United States.”

[1] Report from the Kennel Club/
British Small Animal Veterinary Association
Scientific Committee, 2006 http://www.thekennelclub.org.u.....fhound.pdf

[2] Vet J. 1998 Jul;156(1):31-9. Host related risk factors for canine osteosarcoma. Ru G, Terracini B, Glickman LT.

[3] Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 Nov;11(11):1434-40. Endogenous gonadal hormone exposure and bone sarcoma risk. Cooley DM, Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, Waters DJ.

Comment by LauraS — March 28, 2010 @ 9:42 am
Jennifer, their love of the breed is a love of the adult greyhound, whose characteristics are in many ways a product of selecting for the physical ability and the desire to run after things. Just as I had no desire to herd with my BC, or to hunt with my cocker spaniel, and have no desire to use my Crested as a shipboard ratter, but a lot of the characteristics of all three of these breeds that inspired my love are the same characteristics that made the breeds suitable for their primary traditional purposes.

There’s something wrong and sad about a retriever who doesn’t want to get wet and isn’t interested in birds. It doesn’t matter that my sister doesn’t hunt with her Lab; the characteristics that make that dog a great “just a pet” for her are a product of the selection for good retrievers.

And that’s what you’re missing. Whether or not your particular greys are on the low end of the prey drive scale for the breed, they’re still different dogs than they would be if they weren’t being bred for the ability and desire to run after things. That’s part of what makes the nice temperament, the forty-mile-an-hour couch potatoes with sweet, polite manners that people love.

Comment by Lis — March 28, 2010 @ 9:44 am
AMATEUR GREYHOUND RACING! Yes! That is what I was groping for. Can it do the job and conserve the wonderful, functional breed without exploitation?

Tell us more, Deb Moulton.

Oh, as for “My dog has no prey drive, because he lives with a cat.”

Wow.

So this dog — the one who tried to nurse foster kittens before she ever had a litter of her own — has no prey drive, right?

http://picasaweb.google.com/HH.....7245218306

Dogs are so much more varied and wonderful and alien and subtle in their genetic diversity than those who see them as mere love-objects and helpless victims will ever know. Their minds are not simple, their instincts do not yield to arithmetic, and yet across millennia lines and breeds of them have yielded a useful and marvelous consistency that makes them enthusiastic partners in our diverse endeavors. One can spend a lifetime sussing out the shared mysteries of one functional breed, and at the same time be enriched by the friendship of each individual canine soul who is caught in that stream of time and genetic code.

I truly feel sorry for all humans who cannot partake of those mysteries. It is one of the great heritages of our own species that “modern” people seem eager to lose, along with the subtlety of mind and openness of perception that are both required for, and developed by, the effort.

You have blocked out one of the great sources of joy that is written into our own genetic code.

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 28, 2010 @ 9:54 am
Coursing of appropriate live game species (yes, some animals are killed) is the traditional and most complete selection test of working genetics for greyhounds. Coursing has been used for thousands of years to maintain healthy, balanced sighthound breeds, and still exists today.

Some greyhounds are used in coursing, but their numbers are far fewer than in NGA racing.

Does Grey2KUSA support increased use of greyhound coursing — the real thing, not lure chasing — in order to provide alternative and balanced selection for greyhound working genetics? If it is the unbalanced selection for top speed and commercialization of the racing industry you object to, coursing would eliminate those problems.

Comment by LauraS — March 28, 2010 @ 9:58 am
“And there are plenty of NGA greyhounds who don’t have a high prey drive/chase instinct and don’t have an interest in running around an oval after a lure. For all of the touting of the NGA’s preserving the greyhound as ‘a heritage working breed’ - approximately half of retired racers can peaceably live with cats and small dogs. One racing trainer told me her opinion was that it might be as high 60%.”

Many dogs with high or even extreme prey drive can and do live peaceably with cats, small dogs, livestock, etc.

The Bedouins in Arabia have salukis they use to course hares and gazelles living peacefully with their livestock. The Bedouins would not tolerate it otherwise.

More generally, it is quite common for dogs of many different breeds to live peacefully with small animals, and yet chase and kill animals of the same species they don’t live with.

Many other high prey drive dogs are even more selective, and will chase balls with gusto yet are uninterested in chasing live animals.

Comment by LauraS — March 28, 2010 @ 10:09 am
I would bet that the majority of the millions of dogs that end up dead every year at the pound are working breeds – which ‘average’ people go out and buy as cute little puppies and then dump when they eat their couches.

Actually, a large majority of shelter dogs are random mixes, and are not any “breed”.

Of shelter dogs who are of some breed, most are not working breeds. Setting aside the common breed mis-identifications that go on at shelters, most dogs that are labeled as being working breeds are not. They are instead “improved” descendants of working breed populations, generations removed from working breeding.

Comment by LauraS — March 28, 2010 @ 10:47 am
Dr. Couto has stated that racing greyhounds have the highest rate of osteosarcoma of any breed of dog - reference a study from the University of Florida. (see link below)

Go to this link - (http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/2376.htm), go down the list of FAQs and click on No. 22 and then click on “Osteosarcoma and your Greyhound”
Page 2 contains the following statement - “A recent study performed at the University of Florida (UF) showed that Greyhounds had a greater incidence of osteosarcoma then any other breed.”

This was not the case for AKC greys.

I’ll go with logic, scientific research and Couto over any kennel club or certainly non-medical source. Couto is widely held as one of top researchers on this subject.
A lot of other breeds are facing cancer rates that are far too high as well. The breeding practices for racing greyhounds and those engaged by many other breeders are extremely poor, mostly because the dogs being bred almost exclusively for speed or appearance.
Health needs to be the No. 1 certain - and it isn’t - except for the better breeders.

Plus, we need to understand that all dogs are descendants of wolves. Specific dog breeds are the result of human-induced evolution.
One of the primary and most important factors for dog behavior is domestication.

Humans and dogs carry a special bond. The more recent research is uncovering the importance of this bond, a result of the domestication of the species and the on-going evolutionary process.

It is important to understand the importance of emotion in the health of dogs. Their pain and suffering is not exclusively physical. They experience emotional pain as well.
The key element in understanding this is to understand self-awareness and the state of consciousness.
When people speak out against greyhound racing or other entities where animals are not handled properly or mistreated, we are doing so out of a logical concern for the emotional and physical well-being of the animals.

Comment by Tom Grady — March 28, 2010 @ 11:31 am
“It is important to understand the importance of emotion in the health of dogs. Their pain and suffering is not exclusively physical. They experience emotional pain as well.
The key element in understanding this is to understand self-awareness and the state of consciousness.
When people speak out against greyhound racing or other entities where animals are not handled properly or mistreated, we are doing so out of a logical concern for the emotional and physical well-being of the animals.”

Comment by Tom Grady — March 28, 2010 @ 11:31 am

Well said.

Which, of course, we are stressing that a dog isn’t just it’s appearance - but it’s drives as well.

Just to play devil’s advocate, does your definition of mental cruelty include someone who owns sighthounds, and never allows them to run??

Comment by K.B. — March 28, 2010 @ 11:48 am
“I would bet that the majority of the millions of dogs that end up dead every year at the pound are working breeds..”

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 9:26 am

Well, since the majority of recognized breeds are working breeds, that’s kinda like saying the majority of crimes committed in Canada are committed by Canadians.

Comment by K.B. — March 28, 2010 @ 11:52 am
Heather wrote: ‘Dogs are so much more varied and wonderful and alien and subtle in their genetic diversity than those who see them as mere love-objects and helpless victims will ever know. Their minds are not simple, their instincts do not yield to arithmetic, and yet across millennia lines and breeds of them have yielded a useful and marvelous consistency that makes them enthusiastic partners in our diverse endeavors.’

Dogs are varied and diverse because they are intelligent, sentient INDIVIDUALS that don’t necessarily follow a man-made blueprint of what they are ‘supposed’ to do.

Now according to Heather, my retired racers are ‘mere love-objects and helpless victims’. My poor greyhounds - the poor, poor things!

Sorry, but my retired racers stopped being ‘helpless victims’ (and indentured slaves) when they stepped off the track and walked through my door.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 1:12 pm
Heather wrote: ‘Oh, as for “My dog has no prey drive, because he lives with a cat.” Wow.’

Heather – if you are going to ‘quote’ me, please do so accurately.

This is exactly what I wrote: ‘All of my greys have had a low prey drive…’

LOW. Not NO.
TYVM.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 1:17 pm
Dogs are varied and diverse because they are intelligent, sentient INDIVIDUALS that don’t necessarily follow a man-made blueprint of what they are ‘supposed’ to do.

All the evidence needed to support the proposition that you are never gonna get it.

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 28, 2010 @ 1:19 pm
‘K.B.’ wrote:
‘Just to play devil’s advocate, does your definition of mental cruelty include someone who owns sighthounds, and never allows them to run??’

Well, K.B., I’d put that one other the ‘broad stroke assumptions’ category that Gina accused me of.

What do you base that assumption on about Tom, or me, or anyone else who owns an NGA greyhound and doesn’t race or lure course?

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 1:20 pm
I wrote: ‘Dogs are varied and diverse because they are intelligent, sentient INDIVIDUALS that don’t necessarily follow a man-made blueprint of what they are ‘supposed’ to do.’

Heather wrote in response: ‘All the evidence needed to support the proposition that you are never gonna get it.’

Get WHAT, Heather?
Treating my dogs like mindless running machines?
Considering them mindless robots that are here to do my bidding?

If that’s what you mean -

NO, I will never get it, and frankly, I don’t want to.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 1:23 pm
Laura S. wrote:

‘Actually, a large majority of shelter dogs are random mixes, and are not any “breed”.’

and

‘Of shelter dogs who are of some breed, most are not working breeds. Setting aside the common breed mis-identifications that go on at shelters, most dogs that are labeled as being working breeds are not. They are instead “improved” descendants of working breed populations, generations removed from working breeding.’

Laura - to echo your own posts: what data do you base these statements on?

Please point us to the evidence.
Please point us to the source you use to support that statement.

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 1:29 pm
‘AMATEUR GREYHOUND RACING! Yes! Tell us more, Deb Moulton.’

Yes, Deb, please do.

Oh, wait - are we talking greyhounds or Italian Greyhounds??

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 1:33 pm
I’ve participated in dozens, maybe hundreds, of discussions like this one in my life. The good ones are where people with diverse backgrounds and values present their different viewpoints, and everyone benefits from a civil exploration of those different views.

Then there are the discussions like this one, where some participants are playing an infantile game of “gotcha,” sneering at the others, and standing up on a mountain of condescension and assumed moral superiority whilst pontificating instead of discussing.

So let me be crystal clear: Knock it off now. Discuss the issues, discuss them impersonally and politely, cite your evidence when you make factual allegations, and cut the thinly-veiled (and not so veiled) personal attacks. If your point of view has any validity at all, you can present and defend it without denigrating those who disagree with you.

If it doesn’t, then just walk away.

Comment by Christie Keith — March 28, 2010 @ 1:43 pm
Lis wrote: ‘Jennifer, their love of the breed is a love of the adult greyhound, whose characteristics are in many ways a product of selecting for the physical ability and the desire to run after things. Just as I had no desire to herd with my BC, or to hunt with my cocker spaniel, and have no desire to use my Crested as a shipboard ratter, but a lot of the characteristics of all three of these breeds that inspired my love are the same characteristics that made the breeds suitable for their primary traditional purposes.

And

‘Whether or not your particular greys are on the low end of the prey drive scale for the breed, they’re still different dogs than they would be if they weren’t being bred for the ability and desire to run after things. That’s part of what makes the nice temperament, the forty-mile-an-hour couch potatoes with sweet, polite manners that people love.’

Actually, Lis, the desire to ‘run after things’ is NOT part of what I appreciate in my greyhounds.

Running after things isn’t, in my opinion, what makes a ‘nice temperament’.

It doesn’t ‘inspire my love’.

Do I understand that chasing a squirrel or rabbit in my yard, and possibly killing it, is a natural part of my greyhounds (as it was for my Rottweiler and for the Chow I grew up with)? Yes.

It is something I appreciate? Nope.

Do I think it’s sweet and polite? Nope.

(I don’t like that my husband snores, but I accept it as part of him and love him anyway.)

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 1:50 pm
“Go to this link - (http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/2376.htm), go down the list of FAQs and click on No. 22 and then click on “Osteosarcoma and your Greyhound” Page 2 contains the following statement - “A recent study performed at the University of Florida (UF) showed that Greyhounds had a greater incidence of osteosarcoma then any other breed.”

“This was not the case for AKC greys.

I ran down the proper citation, which is:
JAVMA October 1, 2007, Vol. 231, No. 7, Pages 1076-1080 Prevalence of and intrinsic risk factors for appendicular osteosarcoma in dogs: 179 cases (1996–2005) Julie A. Rosenberger, DVM; Norma V. Pablo, DVM; P. Cynda Crawford, DVM, PhD

The authors wrote: “Results—Breed period prevalence of OSA was highest for Greyhounds (21/339 [6.2%]), followed by Rottweilers (51/969 [5.3%]) and Great Danes (13/297 [4.4%]); all 21 Greyhounds with OSA were identified as having retired from racing.”

The reported differences in osteosarcoma (OSA) breed prevalence among the high-risk breeds may not be statistically significant in this study given the small population size for all breeds.

Furthermore, there were only 21 greyhounds with OSA in this study. That all of them were from a racing background is hardly surprising given that the vast majority of greyhounds in the USA are from racing backgrounds. Adoption groups place about 100 times more ex-racing greyhounds each year as the AKC registers.

Statistically, for every 21 greyhounds from a racing background with OSA, if AKC greyhounds have the same OSA prevalence as racing greyhounds, we would expect about 0.2 cases of OSA in AKC greyhounds. In other words, we would expect to find ZERO AKC greyhounds with OSA in this study even if their risk of OSA is the same as the risk in racing greyhounds.

A study with this small sample size cannot be used to determine the relative prevalence of OSA in AKC vs. racing greyhounds. The study report includes no quantitative conclusions on that issue, despite the distortions by activists who wish to ban greyhound racing. The authors wrote: “Fatigue-induced microcracks occur in cortical bone in the limbs of dogs in association with repetitive weight-bearing stresses of daily activities.13 These microcracks are repaired by bone remodeling processes characterized by increased cell turnover.14,15 Thus, it has
been speculated that racing Greyhounds may be predisposed to developing OSA because of stresses placed on the limbs during racing, particularly the right limbs, because these sustain the most trauma and fatigue in association with running counterclockwise on oval tracks in the United States. However, there was no difference in the proportion of right limb versus left limb tumors among Greyhounds in the present study. Although retired racing Greyhounds in the present study had a significantly increased risk of developing OSA compared with mixed-breed dogs, we were unable to determine whether racing was a risk factor for development of OSA because there were no Greyhounds that had not trained for racing or raced competitively.”

Once again, osteosarcoma is a common cause of death in large, giant, and tall breeds. It is not unique or uniquely high in racing greyhounds compared to other high-risk breeds which have nothing to do with racing. Other studies (referenced above) found a higher rate of OSA in other breeds, for example the Irish Wolfhound.

It’s a fact, working and performance dogs get exposed to risks that pet dogs are less likely to experience.

My SAR dog has suffered over the last several days from the worst case of ticks of his life, and that is saying something. The tick-apocalypse occurred from working a missing person search. My dog has numerous irritating scabs from formerly attached ticks, which have caused him significant stress. This happened despite Frontline treatment and my spending more time searching his body for ticks than we spent searching our area task at the search.

One of my California SAR colleagues recently had to rush his SAR dog to the ER vet from what was a suspected spinal injury, but turned out to instead be a doubleheader of tick-borne diseases: Lyme and anaplasmosis. This dog works more searches than any other SAR dog I know.

SAR dogs are at much higher risk of tick-borne diseases and on-the-job-injuries than pet dogs.

Protection-trained dogs are more likely than pet dogs to have teeth broken, and suffer orthopedic injuries.

Herding cattle incurs a relatively high risk. These dogs dash in and bite cattle to move them (heeling). Yet even one bovine kick that manages to land on the dog can cause it to be his last day working, or perhaps his last day breathing.

When does the higher risk of disease and injury incurred as a result of canine working and performance endeavors cross the line to unethical? Different people draw the line at different places, but the “dogs are widdle fur people” crowd seem to be by far the most restrictive. This is at least partly explained because few of them appear to have any real involvement with serious canine working and performance endeavors.

Comment by LauraS — March 28, 2010 @ 1:51 pm
Heather, amateur racing as performed by AFSA/AKC, NOTRA, and LGRA,is not the same as actually hunting live prey. It’s an artificial construct just like a herding, field, or tracking trial. So is commercial racing for that matter. Chasing a fake bunny around an oval dirt track has little in common with hunting live prey except the basic instinct.
The only sport that actually does test the abilities of GHs and other sighthounds is open field coursing, which is legal only in the western part of the USA where jackrabbits are considered pests under state law, and likely the next target to be obliterated by those alleged GH lovers who abhor racing in all forms and consider live coursing anathema.
For those of us who don’t have access to open field we have to make do with amateur racing. If open coursing were something I could do with my dogs, I would. I dread that the well meaning zealots who consider any type of racing to be purely evil and cruel are sighting their gun barrels at us lovers of these sports. I don’t see where any of these folk from Grey2K or similar groups are in this for the love of the breed. I see no desire to support research into the genetic link(s) involved with osteo for instance, or to help build safer race tracks, or tighten the anti-cruelty laws to protect the dogs. What I do see is a group with a zealot mentality that wants to abolish racing period, and really doesn’t care about the welfare of the breed.

Comment by Deb Moulton — March 28, 2010 @ 1:53 pm
Jennifer asked for references to my statements:

‘Actually, a large majority of shelter dogs are random mixes, and are not any “breed”.’

and

‘Of shelter dogs who are of some breed, most are not working breeds. Setting aside the common breed mis-identifications that go on at shelters, most dogs that are labeled as being working breeds are not. They are instead “improved” descendants of working breed populations, generations removed from working breeding.’

HSUS estimates that 25% of shelter dogs are purebred.
http://www.humanesociety.org/i.....mates.html

Many rescuers of purebreds feel that the percentage is lower than 25%, as they have seen numerous examples of shelter dogs labeled by shelters to be of their breed that clearly were not.

As far as the percentage of dogs from what kennel clubs call “working breeds” that actually are from working breeding, there are a number of sources one can turn to.

In Border Collies, it appears that the working dog population outnumbers the AKC population by about 10 to 1. At least that was the case until AKC stopped publishing their annual registration statistics a few years ago. So the BC is one where working dog breeding probably constitutes a (large) majority of the breed population.

For most other working breeds, dogs bred to be pets and showdogs outnumber those bred for work. The former are no longer “working breed” populations, regardless of how kennel clubs and breed clubs label them.

One can see this by comparing the number of schutzhund titled and working GSDs in America (thousands to tens of thousands) to the total number of GSDs (probably approach 1 million).

One can see it in the small number of Golden Retrievers who receive field trial and hunt test titles, or who are used for work, compared to the total population of Goldens.

Many former working breeds have few if any dogs used for or rigorously tested for work any longer.

Comment by LauraS — March 28, 2010 @ 2:14 pm
Jennifer, please re-read what I wrote. I did not describe you as believing “dogs are widdle fur people”.

BTW, this would be more accurately written “dogs are widdle fur kids”.

I run into people of the dogs = “fur kids” persuasion frequently in my dealings with dog legislation and dog training discussion groups. Google “fur kids” and peruse the 1 million+ hits.

So I ask again, would you support an increase in coursing — the real thing, not lure coursing — in order to maintain working genetics in the greyhound breed?

Comment by LauraS — March 28, 2010 @ 3:01 pm
The troubling aspect of cancer in racing greyhounds is that probably the numbers are actually under-reported.
It seems just about everyone I know who has adopted multiple racing greyhounds has at some point dealt with osteosarcoma.
One of our greys had a fibrosarcoma and the other recently had a portion of her jaw removed after the discovery of an osteosarcoma.
We know people who have multiple greyhounds die from osteosarcoma.
For our mixed-bred dogs over the years, they’ve lived to be in the 14 to 16-year-old ranged consistently.
It is the breeding practices and again, trying to defend the breeding of racing greyhounds by comparing it to other dog breeds isn’t saying much.

This is why the breeding of dogs across the board should be left to the quality breeders, who care about health over mass-market bucks.

But to get back to the topic in the article, greyhound racing is slipping away mainly because of the level of awareness about the industry in the general public.

Comment by Tom Grady — March 28, 2010 @ 3:14 pm
Heather, amateur racing as performed by AFSA/AKC, NOTRA, and LGRA,is not the same as actually hunting live prey. It’s an artificial construct just like a herding, field, or tracking trial.

I get that. And as much as I’d like to see every member of a working breed get an opportunity to express his genetics at the “real” work of his kind, I’m also realistic that this is not always going to be possible. Thus my interest in alternative racing venues for dogs developed for coursing. An approximation — better than nothing at all, or the utterly ignorant opinion of a dog show judge who has never seen a member of the breed perform any working function.

The only sport that actually does test the abilities of GHs and other sighthounds is open field coursing, which is legal only in the western part of the USA where jackrabbits are considered pests under state law …
For those of us who don’t have access to open field we have to make do with amateur racing.

Well, coursing isn’t so much illegal in most of the US as it is not possible, due to the absence of appropriate prey and/or terrain. That’s pretty much a hard obstacle to widespread coursing on this continent.

I was very privileged to go coursing with both greys and saluqui on a visit to California some years ago. It is one of my fondest memories. It is not my own consuming passion, but it was for the humans who graciously hosted us and showed us their world — and it surely was for the magnificent and greatly beloved hounds. What a treat it was to participate in that, as it is whenever someone shows one how to do a difficult and worthy thing well.

There is no place that I know of east of the Mississippi where such an outing is possible — a reality of Nature, not Man.

But I’d love to come to an amateur race and see what that’s all about.

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 28, 2010 @ 4:03 pm
OK, I keep waiting for this point to be raised and it isn’t (or I’m missing it).

If a working breed’s “job” is no longer relevant, does it make sense to keep working to preserve that trait?

It seems like the argument for maintaining the working qualities is — in part — that it would be a shame to lose all those generations of care and selection.

But if greyhounds aren’t needed to hunt things (except for “pests” in the western states), then why continue to breed them? Or any breed. Is it such a terrible thing if a working breed goes out of existence from lack of “work?”

Comment by Mary Mary — March 28, 2010 @ 4:09 pm
Heather,

Were those people coursing to hunt prey they would then EAT, or were they just letting their dogs chase rabbits for entertainment (theirs and the dogs’)?

Comment by Mary Mary — March 28, 2010 @ 4:13 pm
Laura wrote: ‘So I ask again, would you support an increase in coursing — the real thing, not lure coursing — in order to maintain working genetics in the greyhound breed?’

The ‘real thing’?

As in throwing rabbits (specifically bred for the purpose, and having lived in cages all of their lives) out on a field and letting greyhounds chase and kill them?

That’s not maintaining ‘working genetics in the greyhound breed’.

That’s not ‘real’.

That’s not a person from 5000 years ago, coursing game on a field that he needs to eat to survive.

That’s not a farmer from 500 years ago, protecting his crops in order to survive.

Why is ‘live bait’ necessary to prove a greyhound’s athleticism, in lieu of an artificial lure?

Does a border collie herding sheep prove itself more athletic than a border collie performing in an agility trial?

Why are ‘working genetics’ better maintained on a live lure than an artificial one? Why would that be necessary?

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 4:23 pm
“But if greyhounds aren’t needed to hunt things (except for “pests” in the western states), then why continue to breed them? Or any breed. Is it such a terrible thing if a working breed goes out of existence from lack of “work?” “

The “pests” that Heather and I witnessed salukis and greyhounds coursing a few years ago were jackrabbits, a type of hare. The traditional several thousand year old work of sighthounds includes coursing hares. What we witnessed WAS traditional sighthound work.

Comment by LauraS — March 28, 2010 @ 4:24 pm
” Is it such a terrible thing if a working breed goes out of existence from lack of “work?””

Comment by Mary Mary — March 28, 2010 @ 4:09 pm

Mary, there are some breeds I don’t care for - even some terrier breeds, and it wouldn’t grieve me if they disappeared.

But then I think of the breed I love, the one that isn’t very popular, and doesn’t “work” anymore, even though it was bred to be an all-around farm dog.

I don’t want anyone deciding *my* breed isn’t required anymore, and so I won’t make that decision for others.

And through dog breeding history, breeds acquired “new” jobs when their old ones became obsolete, without much change in the breed or it’s inherent drives. Additionally, many breeds can do “sporting” work which allows the dogs to “work”, without the cruelty of their traditional jobs.

Comment by K.B. — March 28, 2010 @ 4:27 pm
Jennifer wrote:

“As in throwing rabbits (specifically bred for the purpose, and having lived in cages all of their lives) out on a field and letting greyhounds chase and kill them?”

Nope, as I said, “coursing - the real thing”.

Coursing is sighthound hunting of wild hares (not rabbits, and not bred by anybody), gazelles, or other swift game in those animals’ natural habitats.

Jennifer wrote:

“Why is ‘live bait’ necessary to prove a greyhound’s athleticism, in lieu of an artificial lure?”

“Does a border collie herding sheep prove itself more athletic than a border collie performing in an agility trial?”

Lure coursing is a competitive event that does not select for the balance of traits in sighthound breeds.

Coursing pest species helps to reduce damage to farm crops and animal agriculture in the western US.

Border Collie sheep herding demonstrates it’s a Border Collie, and not an athletic poodle, terrier, or spaniel.

Comment by LauraS — March 28, 2010 @ 4:38 pm
K.B. wrote: ‘And through dog breeding history, breeds acquired “new” jobs when their old ones became obsolete, without much change in the breed or it’s inherent drives. Additionally, many breeds can do “sporting” work which allows the dogs to “work”, without the cruelty of their traditional jobs.’

And that’s what will happen to the greyhound breed. One day, greyhounds will no longer need to suffer the abuses of the dog racing industry. They will retain their ability to be athletic dogs, and to do ‘sporting work’ if their owners so choose, and if it’s appropriate for them as individuals. The cruelty of their ‘traditional jobs’ is no longer necessary (i.e. coursing on live animals.)

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 4:43 pm
My guess is that once the greyhound tracks close, coursing will replace it — not the kind you describe, Laura, where people would need to travel across the country — but the the kind outlawed in the UK.

This is just one of many sickening websites I found:

http://www.ruralsports.co.uk/hare-coursing.html

Once the tracks close, I sure hope these Greyhound breeders/lovers find a new job for them that doesn’t involve unnecessary cruelty to another species just for entertainment value.

Comment by Mary Mary — March 28, 2010 @ 4:46 pm
That wonderful temperment that greyhounds have is part of their genetic makeup in that dogs that fight their keeping and training haven’t been kept around for a couple thousand years at least. Yes, nowadays when they reach the training stage to run on the track they are kept in crates for the majority of a 24 hr. period - and dogs that can’t just settle down and sleep, those who might bite on the cage or otherwise ‘freak’ in cages is also not kept in the program. I’ve asked twice whether those who want to ban all racing understand that it is the unique way of raising these dogs that makes them turn out with gentle, friendly, accepting temperments and the one response was along the lines of “I don’t care where they come from” and “we’ll get them the same way we get Labradors.”

No, we won’t. We may have some farm kennels turn into puppymills, but the dogs won’t be raised in the unique way they’ve been. Now they are kept with their mom and siblings until 12 weeks, and then put in puppy groups that are given playtime/exercise for several hours a day, with daily handling to gentle the little barracudas with fur that greyhound puppies are. Instead we’ll have bitches bred at 6 months (not the average 3 and up now) every heat until they can’t pump out anymore when they’ll be dumped. We’ll have puppies taken away from their mom and siblings and sold off at 6 weeks. They will have received almost no handling, given no exercise, and they won’t get any medical care at all. If you think that the puppies from situations like that will turn out to be the gentle, friendly dogs you’ve become accustomed to, you’re going to be in for a rude awakening.

Comment by KateH — March 28, 2010 @ 4:50 pm
Kate H,
That is very interesting.

I don’t have greyhounds and likely never will, so I’m not your intended audience for the question. But in general my philosophy is “the end does not justify the means.” I would give up my species of choice if it would end the cruelty they suffer.

Comment by Mary Mary — March 28, 2010 @ 5:00 pm
I just removed half a dozen nasty posts, and put three people on moderation. If you can’t have this conversation without getting personal, then DO NOT HAVE IT.

I’m deadly serious here: Issues, not each other.

Comment by Christie Keith — March 28, 2010 @ 5:00 pm
Actually, Lis, the desire to ‘run after things’ is NOT part of what I appreciate in my greyhounds.

Running after things isn’t, in my opinion, what makes a ‘nice temperament’.

It doesn’t ‘inspire my love’.

What you’re missing, Jennifer, is that the personality and temperament you love in greyhounds does not exist in isolation. It’s a part of the whole genetic package. It’s not an accident that there a significant broad similarities in the temperaments of different sighthound breeds developed in different countries at different times.

Just as it’s not an accident that there are certain broad generalizations that tend to be roughly accurate about most terrier breeds.

Or that retrievers all share some broad similarities, as do spaniels, and that retrievers and spaniels are more like each other than they are like pointers and setters, even though pointers and setters are also “sporting breeds.”

They have the temperaments that go along with the work they were developed to do, and if you stop selecting for the working traits, you’ll lose some of that temperament, too—regardless of whether you think it’s icky when your dog chases a squirrel.

Comment by Lis — March 28, 2010 @ 5:26 pm
“find a new job for them that doesn’t involve unnecessary cruelty to another species just for entertainment value.”

Comment by Mary Mary — March 28, 2010 @ 4:46 pm

Mary, I’m interested to know your opinion of terriers, since their entire history involves cruelty to another species.

” The cruelty of their ‘traditional jobs’ is no longer necessary (i.e. coursing on live animals.)”

Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 4:43 pm

Jennifer, please note I also said without change to their inherent drives - a point which you continually gloss over. This whole thing stared with a query about how to assess those drives without racing - and I’ve yet to read an answer from you.

Comment by K.B. — March 28, 2010 @ 5:43 pm
Lis,

Temple Grandin has some intriguing examples of what you’re discussing in Animals in Translation, a book I’ve been reading.

I don’t remember the exact illustrations, but it’s something like when chickens are bred to gain weight quickly, it also somehow turns them into fearful animals.

Or pigs that are bred for big rumps end up aggressive.

I’m making these up but the point remains true … the genes pair up in unexpected ways, the physical traits with the mental/emotional traits.

However, are you arguing that Greyhounds who are slow or unable to handle being caged for 24 hours — thus unfit for racing — will be grumpy, antisocial, overly shy … or in some other way, not good pets in the typical Greyhound way?

Comment by Mary Mary — March 28, 2010 @ 5:43 pm
However, are you arguing that Greyhounds who are slow or unable to handle being caged for 24 hours — thus unfit for racing — will be grumpy, antisocial, overly shy … or in some other way, not good pets in the typical Greyhound way?

I’m saying that if you don’t select for the ability to do a greyhound’s work—which, regardless of whether long hours of crating are used to achieve it, includes the ability to be calm and pretty still for extended periods as well as the ability to run very fast, if you decide that speed is not important, if you decide that prey drive is not important, yes, you will wind up with a dog with a very different temperament. It may not be “grumpy and anti-social”; it may be bouncy and excitable—not an intrinsically bad thing, but not what people are looking for when they adopt retired racing greyhounds because they have such nice temperaments.

There’s no way to predict for sure which way it would go, but the one clear thing is that if you’re not selecting for sighthound traits, you won’t get a dog that behaves like a sighthound.

Despite what Jennifer and Tom and possibly you probably assume, when greyhound racing was on the ballot this time in MA, I voted to end it. Why? Because the people who favored banning commercial dog racing in this state cited long lists of abuses and health problems, and when I looked for the refutations from the greyhound racers, I found none. They did a big ad campaign against the ban, but those ads talked only about what great jobs the racing industry generated. And by “great jobs” they meant only good pay and good benefits. The dogs were not even mentioned. The people making those ads not only didn’t care about the dogs themselves; they literally could not imagine that anyone else cared enough for it to be a factor in how the vote would go.

So, yeah, I voted not to let those people continue to handle dogs.

But I was very sad to do so, because a greyhound racing at full speed is a beautiful sight, and a greyhound able to do so under good conditions is a happy dog. That same dog is not nearly so happy if it never gets a chance to run full out, no matter how loved and pampered it is in every other way.

And a dog that would be happy never having a chance to run, would not be a greyhound, and would not have the temperament of a greyhound. I concluded that the commercial greyhound racing industry was not to be trusted with the care of dogs, but that doesn’t change the fact that I believe these dogs want and need and deserve the chance to do something that at least closely resembles what they were bred to do, and that the people who love this breed enough to be actively involved with it should not be hounded and harassed out of doing responsibly what is necessary to preserve that.

Comment by Lis — March 28, 2010 @ 6:03 pm
Tom asserted that greyhound racing was on the decline because people “know” about the industry. That’s not likely true. People know about puppy mills and factory farms, and sadly, neither industry is in decline.

The slow death of the greyhound racing industry has more to do with the spread of easy legalized gambling such as slot machines, lotteries and Indian casinos.

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 28, 2010 @ 6:05 pm
Unfortunately, I can’t seem to intrigue my GH friends to take part in this discussion. They have all spent too much time trying to engage the Tom Gradys and Jennifer Krebs of this world in other fruitless online discussions where the end result is that the latter don’t want to listen to the former, or pursue any meaningful discussions about racing, GH health or better breeding practices. The latter just want it stopped. You notice how they skirt around the real issues, no matter how many times you raise them and in how many guises.
I come from a long line of New Englanders who have no use for gambling in any form. As with horse racing, I truly believe there are too many people who worship the dollar sign at the expense of the animals. I find this heinous. Both horse racing and GH racing could be made much safer for the participants with an invest of time and technology. However, if your goal is to abolish these sports, then compromise with the perceived ‘enemy’ is not part of the picture, is it? You don’t want to work with them, you want them totally out of the picture. This is what I call ‘Tea Party’ mentality.
However, I do believe GHs and other sighthounds were bred for millennia for a purpose: to run down a designated prey species. I have not witnessed a large sightound bring down prey, but I have witnessed my own toy dogs revert to their ancestry and snag sparrows out of the air or catch mice in the woodshed. The kills are much cleaner than that of your average human hunter. One snap to the neck and it’s over for the prey species. My toys who have been bred for at least 300 years to be nothing more than velvet cushion potatoes still retain enough instinct to pluck their feathered catch before I can get there to intervene. I realize many of you are offended by that, but it is how most kills are accomplished. The neck is broken, the prey is not eviscerated or tortured. Can the average human hunter armed with a gun claim to do the same, yet that is allowable while live coursing is not?
I know this whole topic distresses you, Mary Mary. You have devoted years to rescuing rabbits from human misuse as pets. We devotees of coursing are equally disturbed and distressed by well meaning but ignorant fools who want our racing sports abolished. We have made considerable effort to replace live prey with artificial substitutes and the dogs are willing to play our faux game. I suppose if you are a recycled tall sized plastic kitchen garbage bag tied 3 in a row on the end of a lure line, you’d view the sport of lure coursing as anathema, too. I don’t mean to make light of your concerns. Live coursing is not either the choice of or available to most of us who want to run our dogs. The majority of amateur racing folk pursue the venues I mentioned earlier, where the ‘prey’ is an artificial one.
As for the likes of Grey2K, there are dedicated GH owners who will make sure the integrity of the breed is preserved, know full well that for every osteo case amongst track dogs there is equally a case of another cancer among AKC’s slab sided sardines who don’t have the endurance to race out of a can.
For Grey2K and their ilk, it’s not about the breed as a whole. they could care less. They just want to stop racing in all it’s forms, commercial or amateur.

Comment by Deb Moulton — March 28, 2010 @ 6:59 pm
Mary Mary, who gets to decide that a working breed’s work is obsolete, no longer needed?

PeTA would declare that the work of purpose-bred guide and service dogs is obsolete and not needed. And that my SAR dogs are exploited and abused and forced to work.

Most people wouldn’t agree, wouldn’t draw the line there at all, would find that absurd. But …

Many urbanites, divorced from food production and life with Nature and animals, would find the traditional working traits I value in my English shepherds at best quaint and unnecessary, and, if they are of a particular temperament something that ought to be eliminated. They will typically do this with their mouths full.

But I care a lot that my ES have the solid brass ones to stop an ornery ram or bull, that they have my back when I’m around the stock. And I care that they have the finesse to move poultry. And that they keep groundhogs out of the garden, deer off the fruit trees, foxes and raccoons out of the coop, religious proselytizers on the other side of the gate.

They don’t do any of those things by passing UN resolutions.

I’m not at all comfortable letting “others” decide that a dog’s job is some relic of a long-ago past, and “we” can eliminate both the job and the dog.

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 28, 2010 @ 7:32 pm
I don’t think the greatness of the Greyhound breed will be lost with the death of the racing industry.

After all, it’s not like the breed was created by the industry. Greyhounds were fast, graceful and very accomplished hunting/coursing dogs long before the gaming industry introduced them as racers.

I’m just saying, the Greyhound breed and the gaming industry do not share a mutually dependent relationship. So, why would the greatness of the breed necessarily need to die with the industry?

Comment by Joy — March 28, 2010 @ 7:49 pm
It won’t. As you say, Ghs weren’t created by the racing/gambling industry. It might so bottleneck breeding in this country if Grey2K gets it’s way and AKC becomes the only viable breeding source of GHs,and they manage to shut down those of us who pursue amateur racing as well. However there are other sources world wide for GHs where they are still actively raced for money or not, and used to hunt live prey. The breed will keep going because there are those who love it.
I just watch a video of 4 GH puppies about 8 1/2-9 weeeks old, terrorizing their owner/handlers. They are not track dogs, although you’d likely find their grand patents in NGA lines, not AKC.
The people who adopt adult GHs, by the way, have no clue what having a GH under 2 years old is like. Something about that exposure to their real job (chasing real or faux prey) has an amazing effect on these dogs, developing an On and Off switch. I wish on all the ARs who have only adopted adult racers a GH puppy to plague their lives! Everything they’ve ever thought or experienced about GHs will go to Hell in a handbasket!

Comment by Deb Moulton — March 28, 2010 @ 8:11 pm
69.‘AMATEUR GREYHOUND RACING! Yes! Tell us more, Deb Moulton.’
Yes, Deb, please do.
Oh, wait - are we talking greyhounds or Italian Greyhounds??
Comment by Jennifer Krebs — March 28, 2010 @ 1:33 pm

Um, Deb never said that she had big Greys, just that she had amateur racing dogs. But if you were honestly interested, Greyhounds- the big ones (along with IGs-the little ones) are eligible for NOTRA (oval)and LGRA (straight) amateur racing, as well as ASFA and AKC lure coursing. You should try it, the dogs love it.

Comment by JessP — March 28, 2010 @ 8:19 pm
Tom asserted that greyhound racing was on the decline because people “know” about the industry. That’s not likely true. People know about puppy mills and factory farms, and neither industry is in decline.

It’s more likely the spread of easy legalized gambling such as slot machines has eroded the fan base.

Yeah, I thought that was the point of the original story, after all.

It’s a more rapid and extreme form of the rapid decay of the AKC, as evidenced in its plummeting registrations, which is due in large part to indifference rather than principled opt-outs.

Now, is there some way we can find the same sort of silver bullet for puppymills?

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 28, 2010 @ 8:39 pm
“The breed will keep going because there are those who love it.”

True. When the gaming industry is done with it, breed enthusiasts like yourself can do a great deal to make sure the Greyhound breed is preserved with all its current talents and abilities.

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable plan to me. Who better to preserve a breed than true enthusiasts? Seems like a much better deal for the breed than leaving its fate to the gambling industry.

Comment by Joy — March 28, 2010 @ 8:46 pm
H. Houlahan: This might get me blasted out of here but I honestly think the “magic bullet” for puppy mills is to support ethical breeders (more precisely, get more humane societies and AR people to support ethical breeders) and to make pet adoption a whole lot more of a friendly and easy process.

Comment by Joy — March 28, 2010 @ 8:52 pm
Joy, I don’t know any of the regulars here who would blast you for that. Can’t speak for newcomers and drive-bys.

But (she whines) that’s no silver bullet. It’s the actual hard work that so many of us are plugging away at. Tedious. Can we tired and often discouraged folk be forgiven for looking overhead in hopes of a deus ex machina?

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 28, 2010 @ 9:13 pm
Somebody (and no, I’m not digging up who and paraphrasing) said “Do you think it is abusive not to take a dog out to do what his breed was bred to do?”

I’ll go out on a limb here and say “Might well be.”

There are obvious “duh” answers for the baiting sports (bull and rat baiting, dog fighting) where of course it’s not appropriate. But I’d argue for most sporting breeds- including all the hounds- and most of the herding breeds, that yes- it’s darn close to it. People who want to claim to be knowledgable about the breed, who want to claim True Understanding Of THe Soul Of The Whateverhund- whether their interest is educating adopters from rescue or breeding dogs just to prance around the show ring- ought to be required to spend time around working members of their breed, few and far between as those may be.

My rough collie is an example of what happens when ‘working’ becomes a dirty word. She’s the ‘gentleman’s collie’- and her parents haven’t a tenth the guts or brains or work ethic of H. Houlihan’s English Shepherds, for all that they look pretty similar.

I adore my collie, but 3 years in the breed taught me that as much as I am interested in the working abilities of the breed, I’m fighting a losing battle with the tiny portion of folks interested in reviving what’s left of it- and that I just don’t have the energy for it. When Kaylee approaches retirement (she’s my service dog), I will be looking for a dog of a different breed. She’s a beautiful dog and I love her- but I got REALLY lucky, and I’ll be hardpressed to find another one as drivey as she is.

I have a client right now with a golden puppy from a mostly-show family who I adore- and who is already obsessed with birds. (And her poor family is SURPRISED when she wants to go into the pond at the park after the ducks. They aren’t hunting people, which I think is a real shame. I told them to contact their breeder and go to the fun day that the club does for WC preparation- they’ll never convince her not to do it at all, so may as well put it on a command and just not do it at the park.)

Pro racing is inarguably problematic- it is in TBs too. But rescued racing greyhounds- like OTTBs- are a very special type of animal. If ending racing means the end of those, I’m pretty sure that’s NOT the ideal result. So we need to figure out how to fix racing.

Comment by Cait — March 29, 2010 @ 6:20 am
Thanks to Christie for handling the flame war while I was on planes back from Orlando. I think we’re now in that phase where no one is going to budge from their original positions, so … let’s agree to disagree.

No one outside the industry is going to miss greyhound racing. On that one point, I think we all pretty much agreed. The rest … not.

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 29, 2010 @ 6:58 am
Gina & Christie -

The people who got ‘moderated’ weren’t the ones doing the flaming.

The people who were ‘moderated’ just had a different opinion from your own.

I understand from a number of people that this is your standard practice.

Scrub this one too.

Comment by Jen — March 29, 2010 @ 9:01 pm
The people who were ‘moderated’ just had a different opinion from your own.

Comment by Jen — March 29, 2010

Not at all.

Our “standard practice” is not to moderate or ban people with whom we disagree. In fact, my own views have changed over the years because of discussions with people who have different points of view.

That said, we will indeed warn, moderate and finally ban people who do not realize that “discussion” does NOT mean, “repeating your unsupported talking points in a more forceful way.”

We give people more than a few chances to address the holes in their arguments, to provide citations and actually engage in productive debate.

When that doesn’t happen after multiple requests, they’re kicked off.

In this age of “fair and balanced” it has become difficult for people to understand that an opposing opinion isn’t of equal weight because it’s opposing — it needs to be backed up to be of value.

In this thread, requests to defend citations and argue the actual point were met by angry repetition of “opinion” as “fact.” And by continuing to argue instead a point that none had disagreed with: That no one outside the industry would miss commercial greyhound racing.

Having “repetition” stand in for “discussion” doesn’t fly here, and THAT is our standard practice.

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 30, 2010 @ 5:01 am
I am still waiting for an explanation of how a 6.2% incidence of one cause of death in a study with a fairly small sample size becomes “they all die of it.” Or how a 25% incidence in another study is somehow a higher number than 33.9% for another large, long-legged breed.

And where the 900 AKC greyhounds who are miraculously immune to this common cancer of big long-legged dogs are hiding out.

And why all the greyhound adoption organizations cite a 12-14 or 12-15 year lifespan, while a board member of a anti-racing advocacy organization insists that this is not the case and “everybody” knows it, but that the adoption organizations are not lying.

I have learned a lot in this thread, some of which I actually set out to find out, but alas, much about the one-note anti-racing people that fails to shock me.

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 30, 2010 @ 7:42 am
You’re not getting it from Jen(nifer), who immediately fired back with another attack, and who still doesn’t seem to understand the meaning of “discussion.”

Her “time out” has now become permanent.

Would be very nice for activists to understand that preaching talking points to the choir while attacking others never has and never will change anyone’s opinion. But passion has a way of blinding those who cannot see beyond their own point of view.

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 30, 2010 @ 8:21 am
I’ve misremembered data myself in the past, and felt pretty sheepish when someone produces the study and I’ve garbled it, or conflated two different results.

It’s not a very comfortable feeling when I’ve done that, especially if I jump the gun in the heat of a debate.

But when someone shows up with the correct cites, the only semi-dignified and gracious thing to do is admit the boner and revise.

I mean really, WTF?

Comment by H. Houlahan — March 30, 2010 @ 4:05 pm
Was pretty hot, too. Christie told me on the phone this morning that she considered putting ME on moderation, but instead I got on a plane which had the same effect — I was muzzled.

:)

Comment by Gina Spadafori — March 30, 2010 @ 4:18 pm
The industry cannot exist without breeding and disposing of large numbers of greyhounds. That is problems associated with dog racing.

Comment by arumi — July 7, 2010 @ 12:39 am

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