Do you like this story?
I am THROUGH warning you, my daughter!
By Gina Spadafori
December 27, 2009
Dogs are amazing, how much they communicate without words. Take this picture from earlier today:
At almost 9 months, Faith thinks she’s Miss All That. Typical adolescent, no respect for her mother at all. Pushes all the limits and all the buttons she can. Doesn’t help that McKenzie is a very easy-going dog and FayBee has all the signs of being the Boss Bitch someday.
But sometimes, even the most good-natured of dog moms have just had it. This morning while they were playing on the back acreage, Faith kept body-slamming her mom. More than a couple muttered warnings from McKenzie went unheeded, and then … FayBee T-boned her mother and knocked her right off her feet.
Oh, I don’t THINK so! said McKenzie, who got up, ran over and read her daughter the riot act. This is as close as those teeth got, and as close as they had to get: Faith got the message, absolutely. Sorry mom!
.
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A minute later, they were playing again as if nothing ever happened … except that Faith was a lot more respectful of her mother when it came to the body-slams.
Update: After looking through the sequence of images, I found this one of Faith again, a couple minutes later and clearly traumatized … not.
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Put one toe over that line, didn’t you, Faybee?
Comment by Jill — December 27, 2009 @ 5:00 pm
I love McKenzie! Excellent job, mom. Way to re-establish the pecking order.
Comment by David S. Greene — December 27, 2009 @ 5:03 pm
What an excellent example of how dogs use displays of aggression, not physical force, to punish unwanted behaviors (and only after repeatedly using less aggressive communication).
Comment by k9mythbuster — December 27, 2009 @ 5:11 pm
I love it!
It’s happening in my household, too. Archer is older than Faybee but slower to work into and out of adolescence. At two, he’s pushing Bashir and Bashir will take it for a long time. But when Archer is too rough and too disrespectful, Bashir will take him down. Ugly face, ugly teeth, and easy to read dominant body language. Archer goes down, totally on his back - more so than Faybee. Bashir will wait for a minute to make sure the message sinks in, then will let him up.
No grudge held, no muttering and the game is back on.
I learn so much watching them.
Comment by Liz Palika — December 27, 2009 @ 5:37 pm
I wish I’d also had a camera on Woody, a/k/a The Innocent Bystander. He was standing about 20 feet away from this little discussion, and was SO NOT getting involved. The look on his face was, “Whoa! Mean Bitch! Must stay clear!”
And he did!
Comment by Gina Spadafori — December 27, 2009 @ 5:44 pm
And this is where pet owners who can’t stand conflict run into trouble because they tell the mother dog “no!” So often in this sort of situation, people see the mother dog baring the teeth, but don’t notice the puppy being a pain in the butt! Good for you for recognizing who is really being naughty here!
Comment by Jenny — December 27, 2009 @ 6:24 pm
What?
Dogs use their teeth to communicate?
Dogs use COERCION to train?
It’s not all click-and-treat, lollypops and flowers?
I am SHOCKED!! Shocked beyond words.
Next think you know, you will be telling me that dogs have hierarchical pack structures or some such nonsense.
Don’t you know that’s ALL WRONG? A web site put out by a bunch of animal behavior experts and self-styled dog trainers said it was ALL WRONG, so it MUST be true!
Your dogs have CLEARLY not read the literature.
Thank goodness “k9mythbuster” is there to tell us all that dogs only bar their teeth and that Faith would NEVER have gotten bitten if she hadn’t rolled over and pissed on herself.
Because biting Faith would have been COERCIVE.
And coercive training does not work. Dogs NEVER bite each other to punctuate a paragraph. Everyone knows that!
P.
Comment by PBurns — December 27, 2009 @ 7:10 pm
What Patrick said.
No, seriously, I think he was channeling me there for a sec.
When Pip’s last litter was wee tots, there was one puppy of the eight who got 90% of the maternal discipline.
Guess who?
Guess who was also passed on by several very competent potential owners who all said Great dog you’re going to have there when it’s all said and done. Good luck with her. I’ll take this other one.
Pip was grooming her. The Crown Princess. Has its privileges and its considerable duties. They are great friends, and Rosie nearly always defers to Pip. When she doesn’t, she gets reminded why she should.
At 2 1/2, she still gets Momma discipline. And Pip does not stop at threats and displays; if those don’t achieve the desired result, there will be contact.
Threats and displays only work when the other party trusts that you are willing to do it.
Comment by H. Houlahan — December 27, 2009 @ 7:43 pm
I remember the first time my Rosie did the “WHO’S YOUR MAMA?” roll on her singleton pain in the ass, world revolves around me, can’t do anything wrong son, Bran.
It was the first time he went beyond sideswiping her and actually lifted his lip to her. He was much bigger than she, but she just LAID HIM DOWN and told him that yes, the world was still round and yes, mama still owned his sorry butt.
He never, ever forgot again.
Comment by Christie Keith — December 27, 2009 @ 7:47 pm
I’ve thought a lot about this, seeing litters growing up with their mothers biting and snapping and snarling at them, and their littermates and the other adult dogs in the house, too.
Most humans who try to use aversives just do it BADLY and do it WEAKLY. I know those who do it too harshly do a lot of damage, and I’m certainly not suggesting that’s better, but a weak aversive is worse than nothing at all. It confuses your puppy and makes him less likely to respect and listen to you.
I think a lot of people are too inhibited to use the DRAMA that dog moms use so well. I get a lot of mileage, at least with the deerhounds, out of being OMG HORRIFIED AND APALLED THAT MY PUPPY COULD BE SO EVIL AS TO [insert undesired behavior here].
I mean, those dog moms are not, in fact, putting holes in their puppies faces. They are using their teeth, absolutely, but they’re not actually damanging them, you know? They’re freaking them out is what they’re doing, and they do it with near-flawless economy and precision.
They are smart bombs. ;)
Comment by Christie Keith — December 27, 2009 @ 7:51 pm
This reminds me of a conversation I had once with the late Job Michael Evans (if you’re not old enough, Google him). I was driving him from SF to Chico (long drive!) and not saying much because he was such an amazing trainer and I just wanted to listen.
He said two things helped him the most with his dog training: Dancing lessons and acting lessons. (These were probably after he left the monastery at New Skete and moved to Manhattan, I’d guess.)
He told me that timing and drama are everything in giving a correction (just as Christie just said) and that learning to dance and learning to act helped him with timing and with putting on a show that let a dog know he was gosh-darn serious without having to pull out the big guns of Serious Consquences.
Gosh I miss that man — he was always such a good friend to me. I can’t believe he has been gone 20 years already. Damn AIDS. Damn. Damn.
Oh, and Christie … stop typing and go look after yourself, because I’m going to be PISSED if you ruin my birthday visit to SF because you’re gravely ill or some such. Ice and elevation, NOW!
Comment by Gina Spadafori — December 27, 2009 @ 8:01 pm
I’m sure that being rolled and muzzle-punched, or having your head bitten, by someone ten times your size actually hurts too.
Doesn’t do damage, but hurts.
Like a spanking with the flat of grandma’s dishpan hand.
I don’t remember receiving any of the latter, but I’m told that I did when I was a pre-rational monster, and have no reason to doubt this.
I loved my grandma, and I also respected her, so that a stern look had instant and dramatic effect for the rest of my life.
Grandma was willing to follow through.
Comment by H. Houlahan — December 27, 2009 @ 8:06 pm
I watched a captive wolf female and her adolescent son go through the same thing a few years ago. Twice in less than half an hour. He was a slow learner, I guess.
The first time she put him on the ground and stood over him. The second time she pinned him by the throat. End of disrespectful behavior.
Then they went back to chasing each other, having a great time.
Timing + Drama. Hummmm.
Comment by Susan Fox — December 27, 2009 @ 8:22 pm
PBurns and H Houlahan… strawman much?
People are not dogs.. did you know that? Dogs correct dogs the ways dogs correct dogs. Unless you’re Cesar (“my hand is a bite”) Milan, you don’t delude yourself that what people do to train dogs replicates what dogs do to teach dogs. When we do the OMG WHAT DID YOU DO YOU BAD BAD DOG thing that Christie describes (aka have a “come to Jesus” moment with your dog), the dog knows you’re not a dog.
Hey: you might want to go back and read Suzanne Clothier.. not what you’d call a fan of humans using adversives to teach dogs… especially her article called “He just wants to say hi”. Pretty much exactly the situation Gina describes. She admires the dog doing the correction and explains to the human students why the dog’s “aggression” is appropriate and proper (not in fact aggression at all).
Use some other club to try to beat positive trainers with, ‘cause this one is darn flabby.
Oh I get it.. you were being SARCASTIC. And you don’t really mean to attack positive trainers.
Comment by EmilyS — December 27, 2009 @ 8:34 pm
There is an elegance and an eloquence that dogs employ in the subtle dance of signals they employ with one another and that humans can only imitate imperfectly. If for no other reason than that we are not dogs.
And that is enough to convince me that the “aggressive displays” dogs use on one another to great effect is best left to dogs.
But there’s something else. Human beings tend to have a problem with this little thing called “emotion”. It leads to other damaging responses such as “temper”, “anger” and “holding grudges” which - in turn - quite often lead to an event known as an “over the top” reaction.
There was nothing “over the top” in how McKutie handled her daughter’s display of bad manners. The reaction was measured, immediate, and when it was over, it was over. No hard feelings, no harm, no foul.
People tend not to do so well when something upsets them. Which is why we end up with dogs getting their noses rubbed in their “messes” or beaten for chewing a favorite shoe.
Nope - I’d much rather leave the subtlety and lack of emotional baggage to the ones who have proven they can handle it - the dogs.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — December 27, 2009 @ 9:27 pm
On Christmas day, a dear friend came to visit bringing her 3 invited tervs: Mom, her son from her first litter, and Mr. Unrelated. Mom and son were playing in the snow, and I was fascinated by watching them. Not once did Son step over the line with Mom. He knew the rules of the game. Listening to the vocal accompaniments and the “fierce” dance their play involved, I coined a new name for them: “wolvurens”.
There was some jockeying for position in the house between my old dog and Son. Son did some very clever body positioning with Old Dog, who is maybe 1/3 Son’s weight, to express his status. At one point Old Dog let fly with a shriek but the only thing that Son wounded was Old Dog’s dignity!
Anyway, watching them work it out was fascinating if a bit noisy at times, and ended pretty much in mutual respect between them. The more often they meet, the less they will spend time posturing with each other. Mr. Unrelated and Old Dog have had a relationship for years so no need to posture. Alas, my friend and I rarely see each other anymore, so Mom and Son don’t know my pack the way their predecessors did.
“Nope - I’d much rather leave the subtlety and lack of emotional baggage to the ones who have proven they can handle it - the dogs.” Comment by The OTHER Pat. I couldn’t agree more!
Comment by Anne T — December 28, 2009 @ 5:51 am
But there’s something else. Human beings tend to have a problem with this little thing called “emotion”. It leads to other damaging responses such as “temper”, “anger” and “holding grudges” which - in turn - quite often lead to an event known as an “over the top” reaction.
Projection, much?
Comment by H. Houlahan — December 28, 2009 @ 7:44 am
Observation much?
Comment by The OTHER Pat — December 28, 2009 @ 8:14 am
Since the positive only crowd is so darn good at assuming that the other crowd can’t use correction without emotionally losing it…
would it be fair to assume that they don’t correct because they *know* they can’t control themselves?
Why is not okay to assume that positive training will be permissive, but acceptable to call anyone who uses a fair and timely correction a “Cesar” in a nasty tone of voice?
We go a lot futher towards getting some dogs trained if both groups stopped assuming, and started training and judging the results.
~~~~
timing and drama. So much done in 3 words!
Comment by Wendy — December 28, 2009 @ 8:25 am
To expand a bit on my previous point - I have OBSERVED the fact that quite a few human beings find it difficult use correction “without emotionally losing it”.
What’s so difficult to understand about that?
Comment by The OTHER Pat — December 28, 2009 @ 8:43 am
Forget about “emotionally losing it” part, though I think it’s a great observation about dog vs human behavior overall.
The part that I think is important is HUMANS ARE NOT DOGS. They know this. We know this. We’ve been companions for years now. They’re still not humans, we’re still not dogs. McK’s reaction was perfect for a momma dog. If a human tried it, it may confuse and shock the pup long enough to look effective, but gaining human respect shouldn’t be about fear. Fear and respect are totally different.
I’ve seen so many crazy training techniques and whenever they involve being at the top of the hierarchy, it means problems for relations with other humans. I don’t want strangers to have to show my dog they’re alpha. I want my dog to understand there’s respect you have for anything that has two legs and you can’t treat them the same as four-leggers.
If dogs can learn sit, stay, shake, roll-over, play dead, etc., why treat them like they’re wild pack animals. They get it. Why are we so slow to learn?
Comment by Amy — December 28, 2009 @ 1:00 pm
“There is an elegance and an eloquence that dogs employ in the subtle dance of signals they employ with one another and that humans can only imitate imperfectly. If for no other reason than that we are not dogs.”
Well said, Other Pat :^)
What a perfect example of canine behavior in action. Wonderfully captured, too. These are the photos I’m always trying to get, Gina!
Comment by Sarah K Andrew — December 28, 2009 @ 1:41 pm
Wow Gina, awesome compliment!
Frame this one!
Comment by The OTHER Pat — December 28, 2009 @ 2:03 pm
EYE NOES!
Sarah is a gifted professional photographer, for those who didn’t recognize her by name or by my slavish fan girl behavior when I get to hang with her at the horse track.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — December 28, 2009 @ 2:08 pm
To expand a bit on my previous point - I have OBSERVED the fact that quite a few human beings find it difficult use correction “without emotionally losing it”.
Perhaps you should try to hang out with a better class of human being.
Comment by H. Houlahan — December 28, 2009 @ 2:50 pm
I had a dealing with a trainer/rescue lady - she’s very successful I suppose - but the rescue dog I had taken to her would not submit to her…he would not allow for her to lay on top of him and basically would not let her be the top dog (or so she said)….it was awful….I had to let her be the damn top dog with me so I could get the dog back…she wanted to have him euthanized…told me he was a ticking time bomb and was a product of bad backyard breeding…and that she had never seen such an incorrigible dog…thank God I got the dog back he’s alive and well - having a great life (I visit him a lot) He isn’t very responsive to “commands” he can sit - he’s justa sweet big ol’ boy….the breeder was the ticking time bomb in my mind.
Comment by mary frances — December 28, 2009 @ 2:53 pm
I love the pic and I’m amused by the mom/daughter interchange, but I think I’ve laughed the most at the comments of the trainers.
Wow, guys. Really?
Comment by A.C. — December 28, 2009 @ 4:04 pm
This discussion is not going to be resolved, and heavens do we all know it by now.
So let me REPEAT the rules the regulars all know, and that I will *soon* put in a document for the newbies:
DISCUSS THE ISSUES, NOT THE PERSONALITIES.
Seems to me when you start attacking another person, it’s because you either haven’t a good argument beyond your own belief, or you’re just being an ass. Or both.
Civil, respectful discussion of the issues are welcome and encouraged. Personal attacks, not.
Don’t make me make Christie hurt you.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — December 28, 2009 @ 7:28 pm
Snort.
Comment by Christie Keith — December 28, 2009 @ 7:30 pm
Trying to draw a parallel between the corrections given by a dam to her offspring to aversive training method use by humans is just laughable. Our language is different, our relationship is different - oh, what a silly analogy. It’s unworthy of you folks.
Comment by Susan — December 28, 2009 @ 7:33 pm
Our language is different, our relationship is different - oh, what a silly analogy. It’s unworthy of you folks.
I have never understood why this matters, though. Of course dogs know I’m not a dog, just as I know they’re not humans. Why does that matter? It’s just as “silly” to say they can learn to understand words — and yet, they do.
When I correct my puppies using the techniques their dams do, they get it instantly and without trauma or dire consequences. They get it when I yelp like their littermates do. Why is that so hard to understand or accept? I honestly think a lot of the “positive trainers” who chant this mantra have simply never seen anyone raise a litter of puppies!
Comment by Christie Keith — December 28, 2009 @ 7:37 pm
The people here by and large are not representative of the general populace. Many members of the general populace still rub dogs’ noses in their own “messes” to “teach them a lesson”. Many members of the general populace still declare a dog was “being vindictive because we went out and didn’t take him with us” when they arrive home to find a puddle by the front door, never stopping to consider that the dog had not been given an opportunity to eliminate since early in the day. Many members of the general populace still give their dog a sound spanking - yelling at him all the while - when they find one of their favorite shoes lying in the middle of the bedroom floor with a piece chewed out of it. And so on.
The simple fact of the matter is that many members of the general populace are just plain *oblivious* to the elegance and the eloquence that dogs employ in the subtle dance of signals they employ with one another and that by and large these same members of the general populace aren’t going to be as interested as many of the folks here on this blog are in taking the time to start to learn and react and appreciate that dance and the ways in which they might carefully approximate variations on some of those signals in order to enhance their own relationship with their dog.
Anyone who wants to accuse me of over-generalizing about many members of the general populace might want to stop first and spend a little time reflecting on the skill levels of the various students who have passed through their basic beginners and puppy classes over the years. Did you really have class after class full of dedicated students of the nonverbal nuanced language of dogs?
I thoroughly enjoyed Gina’s story above, and shared her delight in what her picture captured of that snapshot in time between mother and daughter.
But I still believe there is a vast chasm that separates what some of the trainers here believe *they* can take and utilize from examples such as the pictured interaction v.s. the guy who comes to a beginner’s class for six weeks running and still has to be told fresh each week how to properly put on his dog’s collar (in the case of classes that use choke chains) much less how to use it. Granted that doesn’t describe EVERY member of the class. But still, there are enough of them . . . . . . . .
Since it is the members of the general populace who own and are tasked with caring for the vast majority of the dogs in this country, I think we owe it to the dogs to be as honest and realistic as we can be about the skill level and philosophical outlook of their owners. By and large, they’re just not going to take things as seriously as do most of the folks here. And expecting them NOT to fall prey to the tendency to emotionally “lose it” with their dogs when things are not going well is not realistic, IMHO. Heck - they lose their tempers with each OTHER all the time. Why would we expect them to do that much better with their dogs?
This isn’t a “mantra” of any kind. This is simply a real-life observation of the human nature of a great many of the humans that we know.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — December 28, 2009 @ 8:28 pm
So, Gina, do you just go around with a camera surgically attached to your hand?
Comment by Kim Thornton — December 28, 2009 @ 10:39 pm
No, she commanded Faith and McKenzie to do a re-enactment. Really well-trained, Gina’s dogs.
Comment by Christie Keith — December 28, 2009 @ 10:47 pm
OTHER Pat, the mantra to which I was referring was the thing about us not being dogs and so we can’t use “dog language” to communicate with our dogs.
Comment by Christie Keith — December 28, 2009 @ 10:49 pm
I think we can carefully “borrow” aspects (e.g. the “yelp” you alluded to which is so useful in teaching puppies when and where sharp teeth are not appropriate - it’s less about “being a dog” and more about startling the puppy out of a behavior and then controlling consequences - withholding play until appropriate behavior resumes v.s. pretending we’re a dog “biting” another dog with our hand - whatever that means. Or one of the most unfortunate examples of all - the notorious “Alpha Roll” which turned out to be a complete misinterpretation of what is actually going on in that particular wolf/wolf interaction).
In other words, I may not know German, but I can probably go to Germany, enter a restaurant and manage to gesturally interact with the waiter enough to order some items off of a menu. I may not know exactly WHAT is going to end up on my plate, but I’ll get fed. But that will not mean I’ve now deciphered the language - only that I’ve managed to find a way to get along in this particular case. (And before someone says “But you CAN learn German eventually”, remember that this is an analogy, and - like all analogies - imperfect in the comparisons it makes.)
I believe we can borrow and modify some aspects of “doggie language” to good effect. Turid Rugaas’ work with Calming Signals is a wonderful example. But we do so with care, for like all “non-native speakers”, the risk of misunderstandings arising from mis-speaking or tragically bad translation errors is always there.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — December 29, 2009 @ 7:25 am
Honest to god, OTHER Pat, I think you’re making this WAY too complicated. It’s like the whole “find a good breeder” issue. People have been sharing their homes and lives with dogs for thousands of years. Yes, things can go wrong, and they do, but this just struck me as a pretty severe “worst case scenario,” and certainly none that I’ve ever seen:
But we do so with care, for like all “non-native speakers”, the risk of misunderstandings arising from mis-speaking or tragically bad translation errors is always there.
Sure, it’s THERE. But talk about paralyzing people’s normal instincts on how to interact with an animal, especially a young one!
Comment by Christie Keith — December 29, 2009 @ 9:17 am
Well, we COULD just go back to the beginning of this thread where everyone was happily enjoying the wonderful picture Gina captured when suddenly out of left field there was this attack on “positive trainers”.
I’m STILL trying to figure out where that one came from . . . . .
Comment by The OTHER Pat — December 29, 2009 @ 9:26 am
Seems rather haughty of a trainer, doesn’t it, to make no attempts to speak to their canine students in their native language….
reminds of the attitude that some of the elementary teachers took with my Asian immigrant classmates in school. Can’t speak English? Well, too bad, you’ll miss _____ We love you, but English is the rules here. Give candy to the kid when they try their English.
Other teachers bothered to learn a few words and phrases of the student’s language. Not only did it create an instant camradarie, but formed a foundation in which English could be taught much faster than with kids left floundering next to the candy dish.
Dogs’ native languages are available to trainers who choose to use it. Body language - pressure, gesture, touch, eye contact/not - all there. Raise a litter of puppies and learn about the “yelp” factor to teach bite inhibition as Christie mentioned. Want a dog to stay out of a doorway or back him away from a prey object..get “big” in your posture adn stance, and mimick a dominant dog with its hackles up.
We are human, with bigger brains here. Does it not make sense to try to speak a little dog first…to the _dog_? Does to me. Or are we all to be damned to the level of poop nose shoving ignorants becasue we don’t do it the way the pure positive “he’s only a lemon brain” people feel we should?
~~~
Thanks HH. I hang out with people who can both correct a dog and control their emotions at the same time. It’s not an either/or issue!
Comment by Wendy — December 29, 2009 @ 9:29 am
I actually did post it just because it was a super capture of a teachable moment in the life of HellPuppy Faith. :)
And because I was impressed at how quickly the easy-going McKutie resolved the situation. Didn’t know she had it in her!
Comment by Gina Spadafori — December 29, 2009 @ 9:31 am
Hey, nice picture Gina!
It’s one you can really be proud of.
I bet you’re especially pleased with the praise offered by a photographer you think so highly of, Sarah Andrews.
It sure is nice to have a place where you can share such a cool picture with people who can appreciate it along with you.
Have a nice day everyone!
Comment by The OTHER Pat — December 29, 2009 @ 9:33 am
Other Pat…
Proven in these blogs is that if a “bad” training method comes up - CM is instantly a topic. This time he opposite was discussed.
That is, that despite the PP crowd’s loud and clear message that it’s all about reward, dogs don’t think or act that way with each other.
Now…where do we go from here?
Comment by Wendy — December 29, 2009 @ 9:34 am
OTHER Pat, if you mean me, I put it in quotation marks, because it’s really not a term I think applies to trainers using modern techniques of operant conditioning and focusing on shaping behavior and avoiding most traditional aversive methods.
It’s more about a certain sub-set of trainers and dog people who have embraced the concept of “positive training” without having a grounding in actual dog sense and even common sense. They’re like the parents who want to raise their children to never hear the word “no,” because they think it will traumatize them and destroy their spontaneous joie de vivre and innocence.
Believe me, this isn’t defensiveness as far as using aversives goes. Deerhounds are soft dogs and they really don’t do well with things like collar corrections. They respond best to very dramatic verbal corrections — not anger, but more like shock, horror, and despair, LOL — along with “dog language” like yelps, and mama-dog moves like muzzle grabs when they’re puppies. Along with massive amounts of environmental shaping.
BUT… I’ve had so many conflicts with those seeking puppies who have this idea in their head that “positive training” means never saying no, never using any form of correction whatsoever, including tone of voice, and it has turned in my mind into “positive training,” which isn’t the same as just plain old positive training.
And one of the things that I hear over and over from those people, some of whom are themselves professional trainers, is this thing about how “we’re not dogs.”
I don’t understand it. It makes zero sense to me in terms of explaining anything at all. I never thought we were dogs. I do not think my dogs are humans. And I know I’m a human and my dog is a dog when I yelp, and my dog knows she’s a dog and I’m a human when I yelp, and no one is confused or traumatized.
Comment by Christie Keith — December 29, 2009 @ 9:50 am
I’ve had my most success with positive reinforcement training methods and most notably those detailed in the book “Don’t Shoot the Dog.”
Especially with teaching a dog to heal and behave in the house. I took one hound dog that was uncontrollable outside and inside and by rewarding what he offered me that was a step in the right direction, no matter how small, I was able to direct him to heal on leash and come and go outside politely.
Comment by Snoopys Friend — December 29, 2009 @ 11:38 am
I use positive reinforcement too — I used a clicker to train Kyrie to walk in her raincoat recently. :)
But I can teach a dog to heel or wait at the door and behave in the house without using treats or clickers or, for that matter, harsh aversives. I’ve done it dozens of times. I just do it by controlling the puppy’s or dog’s environment so he or she can’t make a mistake (a cornerstone of modern positive dog training, but something lots of dog owners and breeders have used for centuries), with humor and drama, and with tone of voice or mild aversives (“tsk tsk” or “no,” or refusing to walk until the dog is on a loose leash etc.)
I would NEVER hit a dog, or allow myself to interact with him when I was really angry — if I feel anger when training my dog, I put him up until I’m not pissed off anymore. Although to be honest, Deerhounds are so bloody AMUSING when they misbehave I’m usually more concerned with trying not to let them know I’m laughing than with coping with anger. ;)
However, yes, I will do a muzzle grab on a puppy, and say “no,” and act horrified or appalled (“act” being the operative word here). I’ll scold them, too.
And they learn just fine and don’t become insecure or aggressive or whatever is supposed to happen if you use anything other than clickers and cookies.
Comment by Christie Keith — December 29, 2009 @ 11:54 am
Right now, FayBee the HellPuppy is learning self-control. She has been previously taught to “go to your bed” using positive reinforcement methods.
Now, she learns that staying on her bed is not optional, and must last more than a milisecond. This requires some voice correx on my part when my timing is spot-on, and some replacement of her sorry butt on the bed when it’s not.
Self-control is very hard for a 9-month-old retriever puppy. But she’s getting it, though a mix of “techniques” that work for me — and for her. Limits set, and eventually, limits respected.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — December 29, 2009 @ 12:09 pm