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	<title>Comments on: Unsaved: When the shelter that &#8220;rescues&#8221; a dog turns around and kills her</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/11/16/unsaved/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/11/16/unsaved/</link>
	<description>Blogging by a team of pet-care experts led by Dr. Marty Becker.</description>
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		<title>By: SusanS</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/11/16/unsaved/comment-page-4/#comment-479274</link>
		<dc:creator>SusanS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=10175#comment-479274</guid>
		<description>Interesting background, monkeypedia. However, if this were part of the ASPCA&#039;s &quot;reasoning,&quot; I think they would have included it in their whining &quot;justification&quot;--something like, hey, we only did what some of the Pit Bull rescue groups do and recommend. But they didn&#039;t say a word about this.

I think it&#039;s far more relevant that the ASPCA was happy to hire a mass murderer of Pit Bulls, and to send out their forensic &quot;expert&quot; to seize and injure a family&#039;s good-natured, well-cared for Pit Bulls.

The arrogance of the ASPCA throughout this disgraceful episode has been unbelievable. Sooner or later, they need to understand that they are accountable for their actions, especially since they take money from others. The Fatal Plus that was used to execute Oreo was paid for by donors who had no idea their money would be used this way. They thought they were sending money to save Oreo, not to execute her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting background, monkeypedia. However, if this were part of the ASPCA&#8217;s &#8220;reasoning,&#8221; I think they would have included it in their whining &#8220;justification&#8221;&#8212;something like, hey, we only did what some of the Pit Bull rescue groups do and recommend. But they didn&#8217;t say a word about this.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s far more relevant that the ASPCA was happy to hire a mass murderer of Pit Bulls, and to send out their forensic &#8220;expert&#8221; to seize and injure a family&#8217;s good-natured, well-cared for Pit Bulls.</p>
<p>The arrogance of the ASPCA throughout this disgraceful episode has been unbelievable. Sooner or later, they need to understand that they are accountable for their actions, especially since they take money from others. The Fatal Plus that was used to execute Oreo was paid for by donors who had no idea their money would be used this way. They thought they were sending money to save Oreo, not to execute her.</p>
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		<title>By: Lis</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/11/16/unsaved/comment-page-4/#comment-479262</link>
		<dc:creator>Lis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=10175#comment-479262</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a long thread on Dogster right now, discussing exactly what counts as &quot;human aggressive,&quot; and whether fear-based biting counts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a long thread on Dogster right now, discussing exactly what counts as &#8220;human aggressive,&#8221; and whether fear-based biting counts.</p>
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		<title>By: The OTHER Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/11/16/unsaved/comment-page-4/#comment-479254</link>
		<dc:creator>The OTHER Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 05:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=10175#comment-479254</guid>
		<description>Comment by Susan Fox — November 25, 2009 @ 9:59 pm

&lt;i&gt;It also seems that the whole “dog aggression” issue may have wandered into “what everyone knows” territory without a definition based on empirical evidence. As in “we know it when we see it.”, but do we?&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s where I find myself being most reminded of the saying I mentioned earlier, that &quot;the only thing two dog trainers can agree upon is that a third trainer is wrong&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comment by Susan Fox — November 25, 2009 @ 9:59 pm</p>
<p><i>It also seems that the whole “dog aggression” issue may have wandered into “what everyone knows” territory without a definition based on empirical evidence. As in “we know it when we see it.”, but do we?</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s where I find myself being most reminded of the saying I mentioned earlier, that &#8220;the only thing two dog trainers can agree upon is that a third trainer is wrong&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Susan Fox</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/11/16/unsaved/comment-page-4/#comment-479253</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=10175#comment-479253</guid>
		<description>Granted that all you say is undoubtedly true and that Ed Sayles should never be allowed near an animal, but I still have trouble believing that ASPCA could use a dog like Oreo to raise buku money, kill her and then be surprised that people are upset, all other things aside. 

It also seems that the whole &quot;dog aggression&quot; issue may have wandered into &quot;what everyone knows&quot; territory without a definition based on empirical evidence. As in &quot;we know it when we see it.&quot;, but do we?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Granted that all you say is undoubtedly true and that Ed Sayles should never be allowed near an animal, but I still have trouble believing that ASPCA could use a dog like Oreo to raise buku money, kill her and then be surprised that people are upset, all other things aside. </p>
<p>It also seems that the whole &#8220;dog aggression&#8221; issue may have wandered into &#8220;what everyone knows&#8221; territory without a definition based on empirical evidence. As in &#8220;we know it when we see it.&#8221;, but do we?</p>
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		<title>By: Gina Spadafori</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/11/16/unsaved/comment-page-4/#comment-479251</link>
		<dc:creator>Gina Spadafori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=10175#comment-479251</guid>
		<description>I have a very dear, long-time friend (my &quot;consigliere,&quot;I call him) who is one of the world&#039;s top experts at crisis communications. 

Over the years he has saved the behinds of many a Fortune 500 company, top exec, celebrity, etc. He believes many organizations that are actually quite good at day-to-day public relations really blow crisis communications, the expert practice of which can be counter-intuitive to &quot;normal PR&quot; in many ways. 

My &lt;i&gt;suspicion&lt;/i&gt; is that as far as crisis communications go -- and that&#039;s what the A was dealing with in this case, all other issues aside -- the A just didn&#039;t have the expertise someone like my friend has. Nor, frankly, could they/should they have hired him given their non-profit status, since he doesn&#039;t even answer the phone unless guaranteed a retainer that&#039;s more than than the annual income of most U.S. households. 

Public relations aside, there&#039;s no doubt that many animal advocacy organizations are now struggling with the changing expectations of animal-lovers who no longer accept killing of pets by &quot;shelters&quot; as unquestionably the job of those organizations alone to decide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a very dear, long-time friend (my &#8220;consigliere,&#8221;I call him) who is one of the world&#8217;s top experts at crisis communications. </p>
<p>Over the years he has saved the behinds of many a Fortune 500 company, top exec, celebrity, etc. He believes many organizations that are actually quite good at day-to-day public relations really blow crisis communications, the expert practice of which can be counter-intuitive to &#8220;normal PR&#8221; in many ways. </p>
<p>My <i>suspicion</i> is that as far as crisis communications go &#8212; and that&#8217;s what the A was dealing with in this case, all other issues aside &#8212; the A just didn&#8217;t have the expertise someone like my friend has. Nor, frankly, could they/should they have hired him given their non-profit status, since he doesn&#8217;t even answer the phone unless guaranteed a retainer that&#8217;s more than than the annual income of most U.S. households. </p>
<p>Public relations aside, there&#8217;s no doubt that many animal advocacy organizations are now struggling with the changing expectations of animal-lovers who no longer accept killing of pets by &#8220;shelters&#8221; as unquestionably the job of those organizations alone to decide.</p>
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		<title>By: A.C.</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/11/16/unsaved/comment-page-4/#comment-479250</link>
		<dc:creator>A.C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 03:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=10175#comment-479250</guid>
		<description>Hmmm. Maybe the ASPCA started off with good intentions, then came to believe Oreo was in more pain (mentally or physically) than they had expected and/or could handle. If that were the case, though, you&#039;d think they would just admit it and either ask for help or publish the details that led them to this conclusion so those who have been following her progress and donating for her care would understand their choice. Especially in light of the publicity Oreo&#039;s case has already received. 

With the information currently available, their final choice doesn&#039;t make sense. They&#039;ve got to know that, too, so why aren&#039;t they providing the necessary info?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm. Maybe the ASPCA started off with good intentions, then came to believe Oreo was in more pain (mentally or physically) than they had expected and/or could handle. If that were the case, though, you&#8217;d think they would just admit it and either ask for help or publish the details that led them to this conclusion so those who have been following her progress and donating for her care would understand their choice. Especially in light of the publicity Oreo&#8217;s case has already received. </p>
<p>With the information currently available, their final choice doesn&#8217;t make sense. They&#8217;ve got to know that, too, so why aren&#8217;t they providing the necessary info?</p>
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		<title>By: Gina Spadafori</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/11/16/unsaved/comment-page-4/#comment-479249</link>
		<dc:creator>Gina Spadafori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 03:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=10175#comment-479249</guid>
		<description>Anyway, this might be in part informing some of the discussion of the criteria for labeling a dog as human aggressive, and in deciding what should be done with a dog who has been declared human aggressive.

Comment by monkeypedia — November 25, 2009 

Great background. Thanks for adding it. It does provide some missing context, to be sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyway, this might be in part informing some of the discussion of the criteria for labeling a dog as human aggressive, and in deciding what should be done with a dog who has been declared human aggressive.</p>
<p>Comment by monkeypedia — November 25, 2009 </p>
<p>Great background. Thanks for adding it. It does provide some missing context, to be sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Lis</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/11/16/unsaved/comment-page-4/#comment-479247</link>
		<dc:creator>Lis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=10175#comment-479247</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;well, this all baffles me, because I thought what was important was a dog, not whether ASPCA has a “process” that recognizes a different organization that may (or may not) have experience with a human-aggressive dog.&lt;/i&gt;

That lack of process would appear to be what killed the actual, (previously) living, breathing dog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>well, this all baffles me, because I thought what was important was a dog, not whether ASPCA has a “process” that recognizes a different organization that may (or may not) have experience with a human-aggressive dog.</i></p>
<p>That lack of process would appear to be what killed the actual, (previously) living, breathing dog.</p>
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		<title>By: EmilyS</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/11/16/unsaved/comment-page-4/#comment-479246</link>
		<dc:creator>EmilyS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=10175#comment-479246</guid>
		<description>well, this all baffles me, because I thought what was important was a dog, not whether ASPCA has a &quot;process&quot; that recognizes a different organization that may (or may not) have experience with a human-aggressive dog.  I&#039;m also rather stunned that the proprietors have allowed to pass without comment so many truly vicious and unjustified accusations about ASPCA (though they have chosen to criticize me and other dissenting commenters, which is their right, of course)

Be that as it may, I will suggest as backup to monkeypedia&#039;s post that those who are interested in supporting physically abused pit bulls WITH undoubtedly outstanding temperament consider sending some $$$ to the rescuers of &quot;Faye&quot; from the recent big dogfighting bust.  Faye is a dog whose lips were ripped off (either by dog or human) leaving her with a scary appearance and dangerous medical condition.  Despite this, her eager-to-love behavior COMPELLED people to try to save her:
http://muttsnstuff.wordpress.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, this all baffles me, because I thought what was important was a dog, not whether ASPCA has a &#8220;process&#8221; that recognizes a different organization that may (or may not) have experience with a human-aggressive dog.  I&#8217;m also rather stunned that the proprietors have allowed to pass without comment so many truly vicious and unjustified accusations about ASPCA (though they have chosen to criticize me and other dissenting commenters, which is their right, of course)</p>
<p>Be that as it may, I will suggest as backup to monkeypedia&#8217;s post that those who are interested in supporting physically abused pit bulls WITH undoubtedly outstanding temperament consider sending some $$$ to the rescuers of &#8220;Faye&#8221; from the recent big dogfighting bust.  Faye is a dog whose lips were ripped off (either by dog or human) leaving her with a scary appearance and dangerous medical condition.  Despite this, her eager-to-love behavior COMPELLED people to try to save her:<br />
<a href="http://muttsnstuff.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://muttsnstuff.wordpress.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: monkeypedia</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/11/16/unsaved/comment-page-4/#comment-479244</link>
		<dc:creator>monkeypedia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=10175#comment-479244</guid>
		<description>I think there are a set of widely held beliefs within the pit bull rescue community that are perhaps coloring part of this discussion without everyone realizing it. 

While this may be slowly changing, it&#039;s generally been the case that pit bull rescues consider it unethical *not* to euthanize any dog that shows any aggressive behavior towards humans - no matter the circumstances of the aggression (that is, including aggression in response to pain or extreme fear etc). I would say that this is due to 2 beliefs:

1) The idea that human aggression under anything but a life or death threat to owner or dog is a serious temperament flaw in a pit bull, indicative of a fundamentally unstable dog (this is sort of the inverse of the mass media pit bull stereotype - here, pit bulls are supposed to be super dogs, willing to withstand any level of pain and abuse rather than bite a human)

and generally more importantly

2) the idea that whether or not the individual dog was justified in its aggression and/or can be rehabilitated, it&#039;s wrong to risk another black mark on the breed&#039;s reputation via the media storm that will occur if someone messes up in the management or rehabilitation of the dog, and a bite occurs. I think perhaps people outside the pit bull community don&#039;t realize how prevalent this idea is - putting an individual dog down &quot;for the good of the breed&quot; is said quite regularly. The belief is that while other breeds can afford to have imperfect dogs, fearful dogs etc. and perhaps rehabilitate them, there&#039;s no room for imperfect behavior from pit bulls anymore. 

Here&#039;s a link to the pit bull rescue code of ethics endorsed by several prominent rescue groups:

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/COE.cfm

Note the section on the standard for pit bull temperament. People take the last line about &quot;is never aggressive to humans&quot; very seriously (as evidenced in part by the note about not rescuing the puppies of temperamentally incorrect dams). 

Anyway, this might be in part informing some of the discussion of the criteria for labeling a dog as human aggressive, and in deciding what should be done with a dog who has been declared human aggressive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there are a set of widely held beliefs within the pit bull rescue community that are perhaps coloring part of this discussion without everyone realizing it. </p>
<p>While this may be slowly changing, it&#8217;s generally been the case that pit bull rescues consider it unethical *not* to euthanize any dog that shows any aggressive behavior towards humans - no matter the circumstances of the aggression (that is, including aggression in response to pain or extreme fear etc). I would say that this is due to 2 beliefs:</p>
<p>1) The idea that human aggression under anything but a life or death threat to owner or dog is a serious temperament flaw in a pit bull, indicative of a fundamentally unstable dog (this is sort of the inverse of the mass media pit bull stereotype - here, pit bulls are supposed to be super dogs, willing to withstand any level of pain and abuse rather than bite a human)</p>
<p>and generally more importantly</p>
<p>2) the idea that whether or not the individual dog was justified in its aggression and/or can be rehabilitated, it&#8217;s wrong to risk another black mark on the breed&#8217;s reputation via the media storm that will occur if someone messes up in the management or rehabilitation of the dog, and a bite occurs. I think perhaps people outside the pit bull community don&#8217;t realize how prevalent this idea is - putting an individual dog down &#8220;for the good of the breed&#8221; is said quite regularly. The belief is that while other breeds can afford to have imperfect dogs, fearful dogs etc. and perhaps rehabilitate them, there&#8217;s no room for imperfect behavior from pit bulls anymore. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a link to the pit bull rescue code of ethics endorsed by several prominent rescue groups:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.badrap.org/rescue/COE.cfm" rel="nofollow">http://www.badrap.org/rescue/COE.cfm</a></p>
<p>Note the section on the standard for pit bull temperament. People take the last line about &#8220;is never aggressive to humans&#8221; very seriously (as evidenced in part by the note about not rescuing the puppies of temperamentally incorrect dams). </p>
<p>Anyway, this might be in part informing some of the discussion of the criteria for labeling a dog as human aggressive, and in deciding what should be done with a dog who has been declared human aggressive.</p>
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