What took the point in a different direction for me was referring to spaying as “gutting” a female — that a procedure (granted, major surgery) that can be justified and appropriate in many cases, is being described in a manner that has the potential to discourage people to not even consider it when it IS appropriate.

“Gutting” is such a negative term to use for any beneficial surgery. (Yeah, I’ve had abdominal surgery, too — a splenectomy — it hurt like hell for weeks, but it was definitely beneficial.)

And while I understand that “mandatory” was supposed to have been the operative word in that statement, referring to the surgery itself as “gutting” gave it a totally different and unnecessary spin.

I am opposed to MANDATORY spay/neuter, but I am also in favor of spay/neuter as beneficial surgery, when appropriate. You and I know the benefits of spay/neuter, but the people who are looking for any excuse to not have it done are the ones who will latch onto definitions like “gutting” and use it for their own spin.

I really do worry about extreme actions resulting in extreme opposite reactions. Watching these issues from both sides, I see it happening all the time. The next thing you know, we’re going to have people demanding that animals in shelters not be spayed/neutered unless the new owner chooses it, because they don’t want their new pet to be “gutted.”

I have already seen enough people who are opposed to spay/neuter surgery as being “unnatural” (yes, even some animal-rights people) to know that anything is possible.

I’d rather not be the one to hand out the ammunition.

I’ve had abdominal surgery. It hurt, even with great pain meds.Was it worth it? You bet. And so, too, in most cases, is spaying and neutering. (I’ve got a spay coming up for McKenzie in August, after she full recovers from being a mommy.) But it’s utter crap to say any procedure is without risk, without pain and should be mandated by law as a punishment for the owner.

And for so-called “animal advocates” to push for mandatory abdominal surgeries for all female dogs — while shuddering in horror at surgeries that are far less invasive — is illogical.

Personally, I’ve been against ear-cropping almost as long as I’ve been alive (I grew up with boxers, and saw how much the puppies suffered with their ears in “racks” while healing). I have also seen tail docks and dewclaws removed, and yes, that hurt, but the pain was short-lived. I’m not sure I see huge benefit to either procedure, so I’d personally be inclined to let tails and declaws be.

But again, that’s not the point of the Terrierman’s comment: It’s the ridiculousness of FORCING major surgery on EVERY female dog while acting as if it’s not a big deal TO THE DOG, while forming societies to ban far less invasive surgeries with short-lived pain.

Can’t see any good reason to leave dewclaws on a dog (unless it is expected for the breed, in which case the owner is going to be aware of them), so I think they are best removed. But I understand a lot of people who are opposed to “mutilation” would leave them alone despite the potential for problems. How do you feel about these?

I’ve helped to dock and remove dewclaws on litters of puppies and have watched them make a little squeak then go right back to nursing when put back in with their mother a minute later, as if nothing happened. When done correctly at the appropriate age, I don’t think it’s a terribly painful, lingering experience for the animals. And I think it’s totally a matter of personal choice as to whether an owner/breeder wishes to do it or not.

Do you believe horns should be left on goats? Have you ever seen a goat with horns, with its head stuck in a fence, unable to reach food or water? Do you believe that’s justifiable “mutilation”? What about spaying or neutering? Justifiable or not? Having moles removed? Plastic surgery? Do you want to outlaw all those things as well?

This is just not a black-or-white world. We all make our own decisions based on our own knowledge and experience.

quote: ‘Neonates have been shown to produce hormonal, physiological and behavioural stress responses, in response to pain, that are similar to those produced by adults, however they occur at LOWER thresholds. Such responses are reduced or diminished by the administration of analgesics in neonates. 

3.3 Neonates are HYPERsensitive to pain: routine pain control protocols in neonatal infants. 
Thus, neonates are HYPERsensitive, rather than hyposensitive in comparison to an adult animal. The assessment and control of pain in neonatal infants is well developed and such protocols are routinely in use….’

Mutilation/surgery I think the questioner answers himself by referring to ten second “work” opposed to “major surgery”. Is the ten second “work” responsible ownership?

What a great question !

Surgery is surgery — and anesthesia is always a risk, no matter what kind it is, whether for people or for animals.
Comment by Stellaluna

Absolutely, there’s no risk free surgery, they’re all risky. Of course it is a risk worth taking (all my cats are neutered and I had my Rottie bitch speyed earlier this year after her litter). Somewhere down the track I will have my mature (4 years old) Rottie boy castrated, but for now I’m enjoying showing him, he’s not the greatest, he won’t be bred from, but we have fun. I’ve kept 2 pups from my litter and they’re 8 months (today :). The boy is stunning and I’m looking forward to showing him. The girl is long haired so obviously neither showing or breeding are an option for her. I will let her have 2 seasons before she’s speyed, after extensive research nobody will ever convince me it’s right to have a dog neutered before they’re mature. The risk of bone cancer is hugely increased in studies carried out on Rotties (because they have such a high incidence of it sadly).
I sent all my puppy buyers away armed with diet sheets, puppy info & copies of studies on the effect of early neutering. I told them I’m not anti neutering (I’m NOT I’m PRO) but I am anti EARLY neutering. Just because a dog still has it’s reproductive organs does not mean it has to have a litter every season. I admit things will be easier now I’ve had the girl done, but of course I now have her daughter to come into season instead. My older boy will be castrated because really, truthfully 2 intact Rottie boys can be risky (male on male aggression), and all my dogs live as housedogs and I expect them to be able to get along together, even though I don’t leave them alone unsupervised. I also have a Labrador who was castrated at 7 years of age as he got an enlarged prostate (I also knew I was getting a Rottie male by then also).
I have never come close to a whoopsie mating, it’s not rocket science for crying out loud !
Cats are a different matter entirely and all mine have been done at around 5 months, I still cringe at the thought of speutering 8 week old kittens. Yes 1 of mine was pregnant when she was speyed - they were aborted.
Also (perhaps I’m in a mood too )why do people lump ear cropping with docking and dewclaws ? They are worlds apart, I would never put a puppy through cropping, but docking and dewclaws are done before their nervous system is developed - cropping is surgery. Why would anybody want to inflict that on there precious new family addition ? (I’m English, now resident in New Zealand, so cropped dogs look alien to me anyway). Unfortunately the way many surveys are written you support the right to dock without also supporting cropping (which I most certainly do not)

Having had sighthounds most of my life, I learned to never take surgery lightly and to try to “double up” on surgeries whenever possible to avoid any more anesthetic episodes than necessary. I also learned to scale teeth and do whatever other maintenance I could do to avoid anesthesia as much as I could. I’ve never had a dog die from surgery, but the breeder of my greyhounds lost a champion bitch when the hound was knocked out to try to fix her tail that had been caught in a gate and broken, so I know how easily it can happen.

One of the things that always has boggled my mind is the people who don’t seem to think twice about having their female pet spayed, but will be completely horrified at the thought of having their males neutered — “I could NEVER put HIM through that!”

WTF? Excuse me, I want to tell these boneheads, but having a male neutered is almost always non-invasive and a whole lot easier on the animal than having a female spayed, so why aren’t you concerned about putting HER through THAT? (It’s kind of the same idea as why a human male having a vasectomy is a whole lot more practical and less likely to cause problems than a lot of options available to the female partner. You’d think you were asking a lot of guys to cut off an arm or a leg, but they don’t think twice about their partner being at risk for a stroke or a heart attack for years.)

As for the original comment, I don’t know that I’d consider having a female pet spayed to be “gutting” it — that sounds a wee bit harsh and negative. And since much of the anti-MSN dialog tends to come across as being absolutely against spay/neuter for any reason, it kind of bothers me to think that the people who probably SHOULD be having their pets spayed/neutered are being given a lot of support in not having it done at all. (People do tend to believe what they want to believe, as well as what they feel will support their position, no matter how overblown it may be.)

Having helped dock tails and remove dewclaws on quite a few litters in the past, I’ve never had a problem with those things. I personally wouldn’t own a cropped breed just so I wouldn’t have to make the decision. I love the look of a nice dog with a nice crop, but I’ve seen too many messed up crops, as well as numerous litters of pups that had been recently cropped, and it does bother me to see those little ears all swollen up and puffy and tender.

But that’s my own opinion, and everyone has to make their own decisions as far as that goes.

It’s just funny to think how easily words can take a thought in one direction or another these days.

Forgive the ramble, I guess I must be in some kind of mood today, too.

So far

1) severe reaction to a common absorbable suture requiring being knocked out again for revision

2) an episode of mild, thank heavens, peritonitis most likely from the severe suture reaction

3)a seroma, the result of all the irriation, that brought on a partial failure of her external sutures.

4) the large bowel upset from the anesthetic then again from the mild peritonitis

Now these are super experienced dog people. When I die I want to come back as one of their pets. And the vet is rock solid and has met them at every turn. He’s a go to sort of guy with a great rep.

These are just some of the S@&*t that can occasionally go wrong with a “routine spay”

Now all my girls (past, present or future) will all get spayed at some point. But it is MAJOR ABDOMINAL INVASIVE SURGERY.

It is not appropriate PUNISHMENT for a late license renewal, a barking dog or a dog who slips the leash once or is let out by a meter reader.

Or all the dogs in a household because the owner was sited once for training without tags on then three, five or ten years later forgets to renew a rabies vaccination by a week one time.