A little Millan is a dangerous thing: Don’t go ‘Cesar’s Way’ with someone else’s dog
By Gina Spadafori
June 8, 2009
Just a little story for today, about the unfortunate (albeit in this case, unintentional) influence of Cesar Millan.
Two people (the owner of the sire and the co-owner of my McKenzie, a/k/a “McMommy”) flew out from Minnesota and Texas to evaluate the litter I’ve been raising and make sure all the puppies went to the home that matched them best. Total experience with retrievers and training between them: About 45 years.
The first phase of the testing took place Saturday, in the courtyard of the Motel 6 where Katie and Mary were staying. It was a perfect setting: Relatively quiet, but with a few distractions; a large space with different surfaces but safely bounded by the buildings. The place even had natural testing features: An outdoor staircase with open risers to see how the puppies did with something really new, a little scary and that required learning and trust. They also were tested on following, being held, interest in retrieving (including retrieving a raw pearl onion — which they ALL did — to test how strong their retrieving instinct was with something really new and odd), reaction to and recovery from noise, etc. And that was just the first round! (They all did great, not that I’m bragging or anything.)
Since the puppies knew me, I didn’t participate in the testing: I observed silently from a slight distance. The puppies were crated safely in the van, and were brought in one at a time to the testing area.
A couple times the puppies not being tested got bored or lonely and started piping up in unison. One time when this happened, I was walking out the short distance to quiet them when I heard someone talking to them.
The woman was “helping me train them” (she said) by doing the Cesar thing: Poking two fingers into the crate at them and going “SSSssssttt! Sssstttt!!” in an theatrically angry tone.
My desire was to smack her and then fly south and smack him.
Instead, I forced a smile, controlled my voice, thanked her and told her the situation was under control. With all fairness, I am quite certain that Cesar Millan has never suggested anyone run around training other peoples’ pets.
But the very fact that this woman thought she knew what to do — and did it, unasked – made my head explode.
So when somebody reads this blog, does what is suggested wrongly in public, the people who see it should go and smack you?
Seems a little unfair.
Like CM or not, he’s not anymore responsible for how people misinterpret his training on TV than for people who misinterpret your advice on this blog.
(see, as usual, the only thing 2 trainers can agree on is that the 3rd one is wrong LOL)
Comment by Wendy — June 8, 2009 @ 2:34 pm
Okay - ‘fess up - you’re just trying to match Christie’s 100, aren’t you? VBG!
Seriously - sorry the little ones had to put up with that. But I bet they are so darn stable due to your influence that it barely even shifted an eyelash for them!
Comment by The OTHER Pat — June 8, 2009 @ 2:35 pm
I get very tired of hearing people do that to their OWN dogs, so I imagine my reaction if someone attempted it on mine would not be very charitable. In fairness, he has tried to explain why *he* uses that sounds, has disclaimers, etc, but the viewing public picks out what they want. People have some odd interpretations (besides thinking they should correct other peoples’ dogs!)
Comment by Janet Boss — June 8, 2009 @ 2:40 pm
Wendy, did I not say that it is not Cesar Millan’s fault that this woman thought she was “helping me to train” by poking at puppies that did not belong to her?
But I can’t deny that I wanted smack them both, and that’s a fact. Poke at my puppies and I don’t care who you are, you are going to stop it, now.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 8, 2009 @ 2:45 pm
I had some guy making the **tssst** in class a few years back EVERY 10 - 15 seconds. I finally told him “In order for that to mean anything to your dog, you have to make it mean something. You just can’t keep doing that.” And in my mind added “because if you do, the duct tape is coming out”. . .
People don’t “get it” that the sound has no magical powers. Most likely, they never will.
Comment by Diane@DOGTRAIN — June 8, 2009 @ 2:47 pm
Honestly - I think you need to forward a copy of this post to Cesar! He’d probably get a kick out of it!
Comment by Teresa — June 8, 2009 @ 2:47 pm
Comment by Janet Boss — June 8, 2009 @ 2:40 pm
he has tried to explain why *he* uses that sound, has disclaimers, etc, but the viewing public picks out what they want.
Back when NatGEO said “We don’t care what anyone says. We want to put this show on and that’s what we’re gonna do! But just to make you guys happy, we’ll add disclaimers . . . . . “
And my reaction was “Yeah. Right. Like 90% of the American TV watching public even READS disclaimers, much less bothers adhering to them.”
This is one of those times when I hate being right.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — June 8, 2009 @ 2:53 pm
Duct tape! Great idea.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 8, 2009 @ 3:03 pm
Why blame Millan for the stupidity of an individual that has no more business attempting to touch your private property let alone correct it. She’s the product of the same fast food, “want it now” culture that the show caters to. How many people here really need to read the waivers that accompany new electric appliances in order to “know” to keep them away from water?
I don’t blame Millan or National Geographic; I blame a culture that endorses inappropriate behavior period.
Comment by Linda Kaim — June 8, 2009 @ 3:15 pm
I get huge quantities of advice on my kids too, including people trying to
help me raise them.
Example. Two weeks ago we went out to breakfast for pancakes and hot cocoa as a treat for the five year old. My two year old was recovering from an asthma episode from the previous day, and teething to boot.
Knowing that the little guy would probably have a hard time keeping still, we went to a diner, a family, loud, kid friendly diner. The sort with a keno game going and a little arcade and lot’s of fast, griddle made food.
We go in, sit in the sun room area well away from anyone else. Nathan held it together for about ten minutes but the kitchen was slow and we had a minor meltdown. No running or screaming, but a little crying.
An older woman came over. Looked at him and yelled “stop it!” in his face. Told us that’s how you do it and walked off.
Result? Nathan in shock for maybe 10 seconds, then SCREAMING. Inconsolable sobbing. Would not eat. Waitress was appalled, she’s known all our kids from babies up.
Thanks lady. I get compliments on my kids and their manners virtually everywhere public we go. They are not the wild spider monkeys that people dread in public. My own upbringing was way to “old fashioned” to permit that! No you did not know he was feeling sick and stressed out from his asthma meds, but do not discipline my kids or dogs, thank you very much.
Comment by JenniferJ — June 8, 2009 @ 3:17 pm
I just re-read that. I guess I don’t actually get “huge” amounts of advice but the “helpful advice” always comes at innapropriate moments so tends to stand out!
Comment by JenniferJ — June 8, 2009 @ 3:20 pm
Forget Milan — this is plain rude no matter what. Outside of an emergency, I can’t imagine just walking up and spontaneously interfering with a stranger’s pets. I just can’t. Let alone with something that sounds like it’s cribbed from the Three Stooges.
What the heck is that supposed to do, anyway? I suspect all it would do for my Bertie is frighten him!
Comment by Eucritta — June 8, 2009 @ 3:24 pm
Gina, I am betting that your well socialized pups just gave her a “wtf” look and let slide.
My bulldog puppies would have thought “Ooh, funny noise lady, but I’ll chew on that finger you have so kindly put in my crate!”
Comment by JenniferJ — June 8, 2009 @ 3:33 pm
I’m with Wendy. While it was beyond rude of someone to attempt to correct your dogs, the title of your post is a little unfortunate too. The situation had no more to do with Milan than it did Pryor, Dunbar, or Wolters. It was just a rude and probably novice dog person.
I think folks go through stages…Stage 1 is where you think everyone knows more than you and you listen to anyone. Stage 2 is where you start to know a little and begin handing out advice unasked for. (that’s your lady!). Stage three is when you really start to get it and realize you don’t know very much, and only give out advice when asked. Stage four is when you really go get it, you have realized that the novices are kind of hopeless, and you just stop talking to anyone and do you own thing. Stage four is terminal, of course. :)
Comment by Mikey — June 8, 2009 @ 3:46 pm
Mikey … it absolutely isn’t his fault that this woman is a twit. But this wouldn’t have happened with other trainers you mention, who are well-known only to those of us who suck up dog-training information like a Dyson sucks up fur.
Most people have never heard of Pryor et al. Most people have heard of Millan.
Fortunately, very few people who watch Millan’s show go about poking fingers and hissing at the dogs of other people. And thank heavens for that!
I do, however, tend to agree with Linda that this woman was well capable of being a chucklehead on her very own, with no professional help whatsoever.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 8, 2009 @ 4:06 pm
I had a relative decide to trim my 3-year-old daughter’s hair into bangs (which she had never had) while taking care of her one day. I almost trimmed the relative’s hair when I came home! People who “mean well” can be so aggravating…
I’ve got a question, though — I’m not entirely clear about this — Did the woman actually say she learned that from Millan?
I ask this because I have always used a similar “SSsst!” sound (as well as “Accckk!”) to distract/correct my animals when they were doing something they weren’t supposed to be doing. I think the “SSsst” sound started out being directed towards my cats when they were doing things like jumping on the counter — it definitely got their attention!
In any case, it’s been for many years, long before Millan came on the scene. And I’m not really a fan of Millan, I’m just wondering since the title of the post indicates there was a definite link. (If this was confirmed with the woman, please ignore this post.)
Comment by stellaluna — June 8, 2009 @ 4:14 pm
She didn’t mention him. But the sound along with the two-fingered poking … that’s so much his signature move that there are even spoofs of it on YouTube.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 8, 2009 @ 4:17 pm
I’m a Millan (and Dunbar) fan and if she had done it to a dog of mine, I would have been tempted to do right back on her. Calmly and assertively, of course. I sure would have said something like “WHAT are you doing?”
Like the duct tape idea though.
She had no business approaching your dogs without permission, not matter what she did.
As it happens, I use the shoulder touch with a “hey!” on fractious, idiot dogs that are jumping and barking in their kennels at the shelter and the effect is almost magical, if my energy is right. They stop, shut up and more often then not immediately sit and look at me calmly. Then I can give them treats, work on focus and help them start to learn that being calm is what gets rewarded, not being a maniac.
There’s another show on Nat Geo called “Up Close and Dangerous” in which wildlife filmmakers give accounts of the various ways that they’ve almost become part of the food chain while doing their work.
There are very similar disclaimers before, during and after the show. Is Nat Geo and the filmmaker responsible then if some nitwit goes out with his camera and tries to get nose hair close-ups of a grizzly bear? I think not.
Comment by Susan Fox — June 8, 2009 @ 5:02 pm
3 or 4 years ago I wrote an article about how a dog I was working with was put to sleep after it bit the construction forman. The owners had a new rescue dog with some fear issues. They were building a new house and living in both places. The dog’s barking had increased because of the stress of the living in two places and all the changes she was going through. They did 2 sessions with me and the dog made huge progress. One morning the forman showed up early and when he got out of the truck the dog started to bark at him. He grabbed the dog, alpha rolled her and was bit in the face.
The dog was put to sleep. When questioned, he told the owners that the dog needed to learn who was boss and that he watched the Dog Whisperer all the time and just did what Cesar would have done. Point is, it doesn’t matter what disclaimers you use. I am far from the only trainer who sees this all the time. At first people were saying that it was good for dog trainers that Cesar was showing training on TV. I say he is getting us more clients after people mess up their dogs trying to do what they saw on TV.
On Saturday, I got REALLY bad unsolicited training advice from a dry cleaner, after my foster pup barked at a man in a giant bear suit, and last month, it came from the guy in my private client’s apartment who came to fix the toilet. It’s the people—-for sure. Excellent Post Gina, glad you put a stop to the crazed woman.
Comment by Nancy Freedman-Smith CPDT — June 8, 2009 @ 5:03 pm
I’ve watched almost every episode of Dog Whisperer and I cannot imagine that that is “what Cesar would have done”. The foreman came at the dog with aggressive energy and got what he deserved. Too bad it was the dog that was put down.
The chick from England in the black leather does stoopid stuff too and it always seems like it’s the guy’s fault that the dog’s screwed up. How come no one’s on her case?
Comment by Susan Fox — June 8, 2009 @ 5:23 pm
Ohhh, someone did that to my rescue, Henry, a rat terrier. First of all, he is not like your wonderful puppies; he never had the proper socialization as a pup, and it shows. He’s very reactive to strange things. We’ve come a long, long way with positive reinforcement and confidence building and lots of exposure to different things with lots of treats and coaching.
Anyway, Henry was out with me on a mountain bike outing, and he was making little sounds of impatience, like little whimpers right before we were about to get started on the trail. He does this. I’m okay with it. He used to do much worse things, like bark—sort of like the huskies do when they’re about to start the Iditarod. Well, a friend of ours that was there gave me the whole dominance speech about how I didn’t have dominance, and he starts doing the Psssst sound to Henry and wagging his finger around. I was thinking Uh Oh. Henry looked at him for a second with this confused look and then exploded into a barking lunging fit at my friend. Nope, the Psssst didn’t work at all. Not on my reactive, unsocialized, one-eyed rescue. My husband was there and burst out laughing. I guess our friend is only a dog whisperer wannabe. He looked at me right after that and said, “I’m glad he’s not my dog.” Me too, buddy, me too.
Comment by Sara Jo — June 8, 2009 @ 5:29 pm
Susan, if you think it’s always “the guy’s fault” that the dog has problems on It’s Me or the Dog, you haven’t watched very many episodes, and not closely. It’s always the owner(s) fault, for sure—and if you’ve noticed, that’s Cesar’s opinion, too.
She’s a lot less into dominance and a lot more into positive reinforcement, which means there are fewer things that will be really dangerous for idiots who don’t get it to copy and get themselves or someone else bit.
Comment by Lis — June 8, 2009 @ 5:33 pm
I’ve watched quite a few, starting when the show was still in England and that definitely seemed to be thread that emerged over time. And yes, it’s true that she puts the owners on the spot, as does Cesar.
But I still maintain that what he is doing isn’t training as the term is generally used. He’s trying to get the dogs stabilized to the point where training can happen.
Stilwell, to me, is definitely a trainer who uses positive reinforcement, as you say.
But I have rarely seen a show of hers with dogs that are as dangerously aggressive (red zone) as the ones Millan works with, so it’s kind of an apples and oranges comparison.
Comment by Susan Fox — June 8, 2009 @ 5:44 pm
ref Mr. Millan, an old conversation, nothing new to learn. There will always be people in his camp because they have stopped learning about dog behavior and made up their minds. Or it is working for them, until it doesn’t.
Not saying everything he says is wrong, just many of his methods aren’t helping long term. Suppression doesn’t change behavior when no one is around to manage it with his “domination” method.
I am personally sick of hearing about “assertive energy” or “calm submissive state” and don’t get me started on “red zone” Yeesh!
I had a woman “helping” at our local shelter doing the claw bite to the next trick and the psst sound to a dog we put in a b-mod program, because he was AFRAID of interacting with people. How she thought that crap was going to help was beyond me. Hands reaching towards him needed to be good things, not instruments of discomfort.
I also had a recent client that was freaking out her small dog doing the alpha roll because it was barking when guests came to the home. Thankfully I showed her much better results with some classical conditioning instead.
I see the fallout of his show all to often to appreciate it for public consumption.
I’m glad you were there to stop her from messing with the puppies. I wonder what she would have done if they hadn’t quieted down and you didn’t catch her “helping”?
Comment by Marie — June 8, 2009 @ 7:17 pm
The hostile, negative and sometimes patronizing attitude that so many of us see from other trainers like yourself is one of the things that makes Cesar look good. He’s all about the dogs- saving them and rehabilitating them by whatever humane methods will work. He’s not afraid to learn and not afraid to share air time with other trainers.
When you and trainers like you start to bring something positive to the discussion instead of complaints and snark, then I’ll listen.
Comment by Susan Fox — June 8, 2009 @ 7:40 pm
And instead of whining about the fact that you see people doing what you believe is the wrong thing, why not at least acknowledge that they’ve figured out that they need to do SOMETHING and view it as a positive, teachable moment.
People have been idiots about their dogs since long before he came on the scene.
Comment by Susan Fox — June 8, 2009 @ 7:45 pm
The broad “training” your puppies prolly puts her hands on the bellies of pregnant strangers, too. For Pete’s sake, they were in your CAR!
People who don’t respect the personal boundaries of others are also in the “most likely to misinterpret the lesson” group when it comes to learning anything that anyone is trying to teach them.
“Pssst” with an angry poke, poke at a is at least a fairly innocuous, if stupid, intrusion for a crateful of stable, well-socialized pups.
Random strangers will do far more moronic things to them in their lives.
Comment by H. Houlahan — June 8, 2009 @ 8:01 pm
Comment by Marie — June 8, 2009 @ 7:17 pm
Or it is working for them, until it doesn’t.
Best summation I’ve seen of what is wrong with Millan’s approach.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — June 8, 2009 @ 8:41 pm
And this works well on 12 week old puppies I assume yes? Cesar Milan tells people to start deflating on pups correct? This makes me furious to no end. When I have the dogs in a kennel at an event and they start barking their fool heads off and a stranger walks up and does that to them, I get overjoyed to tell them that they are sticking their fingers in a pit bull cage. If they continue, I usually threaten to do it to them, then I offer a spare prong collar to them to wear so I can work on negatively correcting their poor habits as well. It does tend to offend them but makes them leave.
Comment by Cindy — June 8, 2009 @ 11:20 pm
The unsolicited—and unwanted—advice from Millan’s followers would be tolerable were it not for the manhandling that can follow it.
I try to be diplomatic in my responses to their unsolicited advice, but sometimes this leads people to the conclusion that I’m just not getting it. And so, after an enthusiastic explanation of alpha-rolling, my puppy has been physically flipped and pinned by his neck. By a total stranger. Without my consent.
Words fail me.
What truly worries me—aside from these amateurs attempting something risky on a stranger’s dog without consent—is that when people witnessed my puppy being manhandled in the name of Cesar, they felt it was an appropriate response. Nay! They felt it was necessary, required, a must-be-done.
The crime my puppy had committed, by the way? Growling in play while wrestling with another puppy.
Comment by RTL — June 9, 2009 @ 4:02 am
If someone, anyone dared to any type of corrections on my dobermans, other then our trainer, I at 105 lbs would be doing an “dominant down” on them!!!!! What is it they say…a little knowledge is dangerous? It seems like anyone on tv is an expert on anything (not picking on anyone!) no matter what they’re touting……gardening, child care, dog training…..cooking..you name it! Stupid people take a little knowledge, as long as it’s from a celebraty (no matter who) and take it as gospel! OMIGD how scary!!!
Comment by Eve — June 9, 2009 @ 5:26 am
Something like this happened to me one time. I had brought my dog to church on St. Francis day, when he was still very much a puppy and learning about not jumping up. I was using the cross your arms and turn around and when he sits pet him method.
An elderly gentleman came over and Kasey tried to jump up and I was correcting the situation when the guys said, “no let him do it, I’ll show you how I trained my dogs” and as Kasey was jumping up basically kneed him in the chest!! I stood there in shock but my “i’m not a dog person” mom totally chewed the guy out for me until I had my wits back.
Comment by Original Lori — June 9, 2009 @ 6:05 am
Susan Fox’s comment on the “Up Close and Dangerous” show (“where wildlife filmmakers give accounts of the various ways that they’ve almost become part of the food chain”) presents an idea for what could be the most interesting - and truly helpful - show for pet owners.
“Up Close and Dangerous - Dog Trainer Diaries” could feature professional dog trainers giving accounts of the times we’ve been bitten, peed on etc. Perhaps that would give some of these products of the “fast food, want it now” culture a bit of a wake up call.
[sigh] Yeah, I know. Most likely it would just turn out to be another cheesy bit of reality teevee crap.
Comment by Janeen — June 9, 2009 @ 8:03 am
I like Cesar.
I’ve met him, watched him work and I was on-location, behind the scenes all day when he came out to film a segment about one of my clients for the third season of the Dog Whisperer.
So I really perked up when I dropped by the local obedience club building the other night to do some training an empty ring, and overheard a newbie club ‘instructor’ tell his class that he *was* Cesar Millan. Not ‘I watch CM’ or ‘I read his books’ or ‘I’ve studied his videos and techniques’ or ‘I flew to California to observe CM’ but ‘I AM Cesar Millan’.
Subsequently, he recited all the phrases, offered definitions, interpretations, and claims about dogs he’d worked with in the past. In his presence, a woman with a lunging, barking dog grabbed that dog, flipped it and put her foot on the dog’s neck. Twice.
So I called animal control, and they came out to deal with this moronic owner and the fool who kept beating his chest and calling himself by the wrong name.
I like Cesar Millan. But he wasn’t there that night in the club training building. Not even remotely.
Comment by Jill M. — June 9, 2009 @ 11:58 am
You’re onto something, Janeen. As much as I like Cesar, it would be really, really good for the public to see the “many way there are to help your pet become balanced…” with a show that featured at least a half dozen different trainers and that provided a history and background of dog training in this country.
Pet Connection series, perhaps?
Comment by Susan Fox — June 9, 2009 @ 12:14 pm
Hey, Gina, you can give it to Christie to do next time she goes over 100 comments.
Comment by Susan Fox — June 9, 2009 @ 12:18 pm
I think you head has exploded much too much this year…
Comment by Ark Lady — June 9, 2009 @ 12:40 pm
We keep SuperGlue in stock for all bloggers and regular readers. To put the exploding heads back together.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 9, 2009 @ 12:44 pm
I use adjustable plates and screws myself. That way, I can let out a little steam at a time.
Comment by Eucritta — June 9, 2009 @ 2:18 pm
I don’t know…as animal lovers shouldn’t we be using Gorilla Glue?
Comment by Susan Fox — June 9, 2009 @ 2:38 pm
Used to be that I had inquiries from potential clients asking if I “trained like Cesar”. I would always emphatically say “No, but I’m familiar with his methods.”
I spend a great deal of time explaining to otherwise well-intentioned but naive folks why it won’t work for their dog and demonstrating an easily transferable means for them to use. In principal, our message is identical, our methods however, are polar opposites.
I too, unashamedly, am a Cesar fan. As a matter of fact, so much so that I had a very intimate role in his getting on and staying on the air. Honestly, you can ask Heather H and Jill M and Janeen and even Janet B. You can send your hate mail to my personal email, I don’t think the Pet Connection folks would tolerate it here.
Be that as it may, although I am somewhat at odds with his methods, I am not at odds with his message, “Exercise, Discipline, then Affection”. How we achieve the discipline aspect is, well, different.
I do not speak to my clients in terms of ‘dominance’ or ‘submission’, or leadership or energy, and find some of these terms quite misleading let alone objectionable, there are more easily understood terms available that are within the scope of understanding of your average pet owner. Soften the language so that they understand in the layman’s purview. “Dominance” can become “Cooperation” and “Submission” becomes “Acceptance”.
As for Gina’s issue, I am a pretty “assertive” person. I would have started by “asserting” my foot right up her “a**”.
Comment by Linda Kaim — June 9, 2009 @ 3:22 pm
Linda …. are you for hire as a body guard?
—-
[A]lthough I am somewhat at odds with his methods, I am not at odds with his message, “Exercise, Discipline, then Affection”. How we achieve the discipline aspect is, well, different.
Comment by Linda Kaim — June 9, 2009
That’s where I am with him, too. I spend all my time either exercising my dogs … or feeling guilty about not getting them enough exercise.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 9, 2009 @ 4:22 pm
Exercise sure makes a difference, even with an “easy” dog like our collie. He’s calmer, less excitable for at least a couple of days after running his brains off at the beach. And he gets at least one 30-40 minute walk a day anyway.
Comment by Susan Fox — June 9, 2009 @ 4:26 pm
“But this wouldn’t have happened with other trainers you mention, who are well-known only to those of us who suck up dog-training information like a Dyson sucks up fur.”
I really like that comment (I resemble that remark) - and I really like my Dyson. As far as the woman thinking it was up to her to do anything at all with someone else’s dogs - that’s where a fast sideways body slam to get her out of the way is what I would have gone for. Since I weigh over 200#s, I would have successfully moved her with my ‘calm, assertive energy,’ probably two car widths away!
And the disclaimers that no one listens to - maybe some people would listen if it was actually Cesar himself saying them, with full explanations as to why John/Jane Q. Public shouldn’t be trying to train without proper help from someone who understands the various training methods. Since it’s not him, well, the disclaimers are only viewed as legalese, which thise without common sense can’t hear or comprehend.
Comment by KateH — June 9, 2009 @ 6:28 pm
Gina, For a trip out to the left coast and a few days away from the madness that is my life; absolutely.
I had an experience not too long ago with a woman who although heavily degree’d from one of our nations finer institutions of higher learning; has never had a child or engaged in any meaningful long-term relationship with any member of any sex, but…. was willing to inform me of a “problem” she had with an agreement I had engaged in with my own 11 year old child.
She insisted that she had a Masters and knew about such things. That I should listen to her.
I insisted that she needed to have at least a passing experience with the actual raising of a child first hand before she was allowed to extol the benefit of her vast experience in child rearing on me or anyone else actually with kids.
She has a tendency to avoid me during encounters these days.
I had a woman who was foolish enough to put her hand in my truck to “pet” my male Pointer, because he was “so beautiful”. She is fortunate that he did not take her arm off at the shoulder.
The only reason I even knew about it was because I was paying for some stuff at a convenience store where the incident took place and overheard her behind me talking about the pretty black and white dog in the blue truck in the parking lot.
I proudly admitted that that was my truck and my dog.
She proceeded to tell me that when she inserted her hand to pet him, he kept on moving his head away so she never got a chance to touch him. That he was very watchful of the door to the store, where he obviously knew I would reappear from.
I asked her what right she felt she had to invade my personal space, accost my personal property and what assurance did she have that the dog would not bite her.
All in a voice that elevated with my anger, in front of the entire human content of the store.
I asked her if in her worldly experience she ever remembered her parents telling her not to approach strange dogs since it was never an assurance that they would be friendly and before I permitted her a word edgewise, I told her that all dogs bite, especially the ‘pretty black and white dog’ in MY TRUCK. And moreover, I would have rewarded him for it.
I told her that even pretty dogs bite. Just because they are pretty, doesn’t mean that they are without teeth, or a sense of propriety over the things they are left to meaningfully PROTECT.
Sometimes, ya just gotta wonder.
Comment by Linda Kaim — June 9, 2009 @ 7:19 pm
She sounds like Darwin Award material to me.
I learned my lesson about four years ago when I met a border collie on the sidewalk who was happy to be petted (owner present and having given permission), but when I reached out to pet him again when he was sitting in the front seat of the owner’s truck, his teeth snapped shut just, barely, short of my nose. Absolutely could have taken an inch off the end if he’d wanted to. I can still see it in my mind’s eye.
I learned not long after what exquisite awareness and control of their bodies dogs have, so knew that that border collie did exactly what he wanted to do. Fair warning. If I’d tried to approach him again, I would have gotten a well-deserved bite.
I NEVER go up to a dog in a vehicle unless the owner is there and invites me to pet the dog. Even then I pay close attention to the body language since I’ve also learned that many, many people haven’t the faintest clue what their dog’s state of mind is or even that they have one.
Comment by Susan Fox — June 9, 2009 @ 7:31 pm
Good grief- “had done exactly….” Time for some more wine.
Comment by Susan Fox — June 9, 2009 @ 7:32 pm
You guys just want to make Gina get a hundred comments, don’t you?
Comment by Christie Keith — June 9, 2009 @ 8:50 pm
Yeah, so she’ll make you produce PetConnection:The Series.
Comment by Susan Fox — June 9, 2009 @ 8:51 pm
(originally posted this on Heather’s blog, but reposting here cause it’s valid, too)
I’m very ambivalent about CM. I think he’s done a lot for making people aware that dogs need more energy input from people to be happy and psychologically normal pets, and that training CAN fix a lot of problems. I think he’s got phenomenal timing and ability to read a dog. I have no problem with him as entertainment. (I think some of the ‘look how reactive this dog is’ that bothers me the most is created partially by editing - showing a lower stress interaction and then the overhthreshold response that may or may not have gone with THAT reaction- it’s almost never shown as a continuous take.
But I really hate the dominance paradigm. I’m not denying that dogs have a hierarchy (Gee, really? Who knew? :P) but I hate the oversimplified way that people use it as an excuse to be a bully. I hate the pssst thing. I hate the neckjabbing. And I *really* hate the way the public seems to have glommed onto the ‘magic’ of those things that seem so dramatic, and completely missed the utility (and MUCH wider applicability) of the less concrete stuff.
In _Bones Would Rain From The Sky_, Suzanne Clothier relates a story about a woman asking “Where do you tie the knots?” about a leash that had knots tied in it and missed the entire POINT of the training session that SC had demo’d. People are superstitious. They like NAMES for things and techniques, and concrete “Do this and it will fix that” type answers. Behavior (in any critter) is never that simple. Away from the CM folks, I’m seeing wide acceptance (equally erroneous) of the “Look at that!” game from Leslie McDevitt’s Control Unleashed book, performed without understanding that you’re SHAPING a behavior, not simply marking an existing behavior that you want to modify, and without the understanding that you have GOT to build the foundation of calmness before LAT can be used with any degree of success for the purpose McDevitt assigns it. It’s not so much that I think it’s necessary for folks to know and understand WHY training works (not entirely. Quadrents of behavior are super-useful but still limited, although I don’t like the black box thing either.) but I think it’s ESSENTIAL to understand that advanced techniques build on basic ones. You see this in horses, too - newbies and re-riders who want to break colts and train mustangs because it looks so simple and easy when Clinton Anderson does it on RFD; dressage newbies who want to learn to do the upper level moves like tempi and piaffe without being able to sit a trot correctly or really understanding and FEELING lead changes, seeing them as just something you simply ASK the horse and the horse does it if they’re trained, not something that involves YOU as director as much as horse as performer.
TL;DR? People are dumb and want instant solutions that fix any problems and tend to glomp onto the most novel or concrete or specific instance of a professional’s techniques without the basic understanding of how to use the techniques from the ground up.
PS: Good thougsts, please? Rittie is missing tonight- going back out as soon as it’s light enough.
Comment by Cait — June 9, 2009 @ 9:16 pm
I’m coming in too late for the brawl/fun but I’ll just throw in my usual: I like Cesar Millan and his TV show. And I understand what “don’t try this at home” means so perhaps that’s why I get more positive out of the show than some others do.
Comment by YesBiscuit! — June 10, 2009 @ 5:37 am
Christie gets more work only when SHE reaches 100 comments, not when I do …
***
I gotta say I would NEVER suggest in any way that any specific dog of mine could/would bite in any situation, even though, in theory, any dog will under if there’s a “perfect storm” of circumstances.
That’s because years ago I interviewed a dog-bite lawyer, and he said anything that suggested you “knew your dog was dangerous” was bloody red meat to him if the dog actually bit someone — or even knocked someone over, even in play.
He included into this category a “Beware of Dog” sign on your gate, by the way. I used to have one, not because I ever thought my dogs would bite an intruder but because I wanted people to stay out of my yard.
After interviewing this guy, I took the signs down and wrote about it. It wasn’t too long after that that I got an e-mail from a man in IL who’d read that column and started small business making “Dog in Yard” signs.
Perfect! It says there are dogs in the yard (so strangers will stay out) but doesn’t say one word about what the dogs might do if you walk in.
Nice looking signs, and a nice guy making them. Win-win.
Here’s the company.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 10, 2009 @ 5:56 am
Gina, when I posted the original story about the incident several years ago on a dog trainers list I was a part of, I was told the same thing. Upon investigation, it was clear that I would have been cited had Cotton actually bitten her.
It doesn’t surprise me that I would have been at fault, but my only hope is that it scared this imbecile sufficiently to keep her from sticking her mitts where they clearly don’t belong.
As for the dog, it is a safe bet that he would have bitten had she tried to gain entry to the vehicle. What bothered me was the fact that his head was NOT out the window according to her. She was chasing his head with her hands INSIDE THE TRUCK through the window according to her own testimony. Thankfully the dog had the wherewithal to avoid her unwelcome groping with tact and decorum.
Comment by Linda Kaim — June 10, 2009 @ 6:50 am