If only people knew what good breeders do
By Gina Spadafori
May 23, 2009
Forget the hundreds of dollars invested in screening out congenital defects in both parents — hips, knees, elbows, eyes. Forget the hundreds spent getting the prospective mom (in Calif.) to prospective dad (in Minn.), the testing to make sure the timing was right, not to mention the matter of getting in and out between Minnesota blizzards. Forget the thousands spent on training and competing with the parents. Forget the prenatal care, the ultrasounds, the X-rays. Forget having your veterinarian help with the last two puppies. Forget the countless hours involved in it all.
Forget that all. And just read what I did with the puppies this morning — they’ll be seven weeks old Monday — and then ask yourself why you ever want a puppy from anyone who didn’t do these things.
Why would you want a puppy raised with minimal attention outside, in filthy, weather-exposed conditions and then cleaned up for a retail puppy-mill outlet?
Support of cruelty aside, why would you want a puppy whose morning schedule didn’t look like this one on the 47th day of his life?
5 a.m. Take puppies outside, cheer them for doing their business. Puppies are not picked up out of the puppy pen in my home office until they shut up and sit — for which they get lots of praise!
5:15 a.m. Bring puppies in and let them play in the living room. Rehydrate their gruel, taking care to rotate through a different “extra” ingredient every day — a different kind of protein from fresh eggs to cottage cheese to a variety of meats, raw or canned, to a variety of high-quality puppy kibble.
5:20 a.m. Clean the puppy pen, which is in your home office. Remove the newspapers and bedding, sweep, scrub, mop. Leave floor to air-dry.
5:30 a.m. Set down feeding mat and feed puppies in the kitchen with their “flying saucer” pan.
5:35 a.m. Take puppies outside, cheer them for doing their business.
5:50 a.m. Bring puppies in and let them play in the living room. Feed all the other pets, scoop litter box, etc. Get a cuppa, clean up any new piddle puddles.
6 a.m. Take puppies outside with the adult dogs, cheer them for doing their business while you get food and water for the chickens.
6:15 a.m. Bring puppies in and let them play in the living room. Put fresh newspapers and bedding in the puppy pen. Put puppies in, along with a variety of toys — different sizes, shapes, textures, sounds — and watch them play while you blog and deal with e-mail. Puppies fall asleep. Take dirty newspapers out to the trash and dirty bedding to the washing machine.
9 a.m. Take puppies outside, cheer them for doing their business. Puppies are not picked up out of the pen until they shut up and sit — for which they get lots of praise! Let puppies explore and play — over, under and through all the things in the yard.
10 a.m. Puppies back in pen for brief nap.
10:30 a.m. First day of clicker training! One by one, each puppy is taken outside, alone. First they pee, and then they come over to see what you’re doing. This is their first introduction to clicker training, called “loading the clicker.” Treat/click, click/treat to establish the connection … about 30 times, using tiny bits of cat kibble. Snuggle puppy while crooning, “the wheels in the pup go round and round, round and round, round and round …” and swing in the chair. After a while, put the sleepy puppy down and walk outside the perimeter of the yard, encouraging the puppy to follow. Two laps, more pee and poop from the puppy. Then back into the puppy pen. Repeat five more times.
11:30 a.m. All puppies back in the pen for a brief nap.
12:30 p.m. Puppy lunch served in the living room.
12:45 p.m. Take puppies outside, cheer them for doing their business.
1:15 p.m. Nap
Afternoon plans: Repeat, with visitors in the evening. Plus: Picking up recycled newspapers from friends, food from Launderdog and More, and clipping nails on the puppies.
Every day it’s something new, but always building on what went before. Sometimes a puppy gets in a jam, and as long as there’s no danger or fear — just uncertainty — I let the puppy work out a solution on his or her own. They get faster and faster at problem-solving as the days go by.
These puppies are not for sale: They have been spoken for since before they were born, and are mostly going to people I’ve long known through the breed club, people who’ve had relatives of either the mom or the dad, know the lines and know exactly what they want in a dog.
But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a puppy for you from a breeder like me or a foster home in the case of a litter left to the care of a shelter. You just have to make sure you find such a care-giver, and not just pull out the credit card at the mall to support puppy-milling scum.
My puppies were born in a whelping box at the foot of my bed, and spent the first three weeks of life in my bedroom. The last four weeks they have been in a puppy pen in my office. They are the offspring of two dogs who are not only champions working toward field titles but beloved family companions. Many of their close relatives are champions, top agility dogs and field-titled dogs who are also beloved family companions. Pictured at just above: Great-uncle Bogey (12.5 years old, FCRSA Hall of Fame, Champion and Master Hunter) and cousin Otter (not even two, and today wrapping up her Junior Hunter). Bogey is my dog Heather’s brother — their brother Chili (Hall of Fame, Champion and Master Hunter) is the grandsire of this litter. Otter was raised here as a puppy, and her mom — my McKenzie’s littermate — has a Master Hunter leg. Bogey and Otter are cherished by their families in Iowa. I include them not to brag or suggest my puppies are better, but to stress that raising good dogs is an effort by many, many people, working together. This is certainly true in the case of the puppies I’m raising.
These puppies will go to their new homes as house-trained as young puppies can be – as in, they understand the concept but can’t make the equipment work yet. They will sit when asked, be comfortable in a crate, happy at the veterinarian’s and will allow every inch of their body to be handled without complaint. They will know that people of all shapes, sizes and ages are good. because they will have personally met more than three dozen. They will know not to nip, not to jump up and that people are worth following and listening to. They will be friendly with other dogs and understand canine body language. They will retrieve, their naturally instincts with toys rewarded at every opportunity.
More than anything else — and my biggest point of pride – they have been primed since their birth to be loving members of a family, and they have never known anything else other than love.
Why would you support puppy mills, when puppies like these are your option, whether shelter pups raised in a foster family or dogs bred with a purpose? Why would you support an industry that’s all about getting a commodity to market cheaply to get the highest profit possible vs. dedicated animal lovers who want to raise pets to be forever in their homes?
Why would you? If you’re looking for a puppy, you need to ask yourself this. Support puppy-mill cruelty, or give your family the head-start a person like me — whether a breeder or foster family for a rescue or shelter — can provide a puppy.
The HSUS has an excellent primer on what to look for in a compassionate breeder, here (PDF). I agree with their advice: If someone doesn’t measure up, walk away.
A few hundred dollars difference doesn’t seem like much, does it?
Except when the deprived puppymill pup is actually MORE EXPENSIVE than the pup from a good breeder.
My foster boy went home today. He originated in the worst of puppymills, got bounced around, and spent three months here getting the puppy-raising he should have had in the first place.
His adopters got a socialized, trained, neutered, vetted, largely *repaired* puppy for a $200 donation. A puppy who has loved and been loved.
People who bought his littermates directly from the puppymiller got wormy, frightened, malnourished, unsocialized, cowering wrecks for $600. Plus shipping.
I don’t know any legitimate breeder in our breed who charges more than $500. That’s what the offspring of my operational SAR bitch and a great working farm dog cost. Hips, eyes, MDR1 testing done and results fully transparent. Stellar temperaments. Carefully researched and evaluated pedigrees. The whole bit. And puppy-raising is JOB ONE here from birth to placement, as you describe.
But to get a pup from someone like you or me, takes patience and commitment.
Oddly enough, the very qualities most needed to raise the pup.
Comment by H. Houlahan — May 23, 2009 @ 2:17 pm
Although there is enormous competition in all breeds for this ‘coveted’ title, I crown you Gina Spadafori, the Queen of Responsible Breeders, at least temporarily! Wear your crown proudly!!! Raising puppies to be healthy, well adjusted family members is not for the faint of heart and as you ably point out, requires enormous commitment.
As for why the average American consumer would purchase a puppy from anyone other than people like yourself, you know the answer…immediate gratification; The I want it and I want it now syndrome. The average consumer doesn’t want to wait a year or two, or invest the time and energy in cultivating a relationship with a responsible breeder.
The people who take home your puppies and the ones who adopted HH’s foster, or obtained a dog from any of PetConnection’s regular contributors are lucky indeed, but they know that already!
Comment by Anne T — May 23, 2009 @ 3:05 pm
…”and that people are worth following and listening to.”
I would say that, in any given week, that up to a quarter of the dogs at our shelter have no clue about the above. Job 1 is often teaching them that very thing. It’s hard to show a young dog to prospective adopters when all they want to do is sniff and run around and never show any interest in the humans because no human ever gave positive attention to them. I find myself making excuses for them sometimes.
Socialization is SO important. Ur doin it rite.
Comment by Susan Fox — May 23, 2009 @ 3:27 pm
Responsible breeders shoulder so much responsibility. And it pays off in dividends! Good for you for not only being a good breeder, but educating others about what good breeders *should do*.
Enjoy!
Comment by Laurie Luck, CPDT — May 23, 2009 @ 4:26 pm
I agree there are reputable breeders,the problem is that they will not join in with the groups fighting the puppy millers. From what I have seen ( I am on a number of breeders sites) they are afraid of having their rights compromised) they would rather side with the monsters who run the commercial kennels (puppy mills) then aline themselves with the animal lovers who are trying to stop the insanity. Let me just say, if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. We are not trying to take away the right to have a pet. We love animals wouldn’t want to exsist unless our animal friends are by our sides, but please please help us to put the worse of the breeders in jail or at least out of business. I ask you this, would you knowly sell your pup to someone who planned on using it in a Commercial Kennel. If the answer is NO then why not help us protect the poor innocent animals who are living in those cages. There seems to be no breeders who care enough to help.
Comment by Carol — May 23, 2009 @ 5:34 pm
If the answer is NO then why not help us protect the poor innocent animals who are living in those cages. There seems to be no breeders who care enough to help.
Comment by Carol — May 23, 2009
With all due respect, you seem to be looking in the wrong places.
As for those breeders who side with puppy-milling scum, that’ll be a long post (and discussion) for another day. For now, I can assure you that there are many compassionate breeders who DON’T side with puppy-millers. And more still who are against them.
The problem: How to get rid of the puppy-mill industry without affecting the work of reputable, compassionate breeders who are not only raising puppies as I am, but also (as I am) working to preserve our heritage breeds?
There are many animal advocates who cannot or will not recognize the distinction between a good breeder and a bad one, by the way.
We need to stopping screaming at each other and work together for animals.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 23, 2009 @ 5:40 pm
“The problem: How to get rid of the puppy-mill industry without affecting the work of reputable, compassionate breeders…”
Just close down all the breeders registered with the USDA? That almost seems to be the definition of a puppy mill.
Comment by Susan Fox — May 23, 2009 @ 6:38 pm
Since I’m wholly in favor of redefining the work of the USDA as weighing the needs of consumers as much as agriculture … I would certainly love to see the USDA revamped WITHOUT pets included as a farm commodity.
And while I’m making a list …
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 23, 2009 @ 6:56 pm
That would be a good start since dogs are certainly not “livestock”. But then again the USDA doesn’t do such a hot job of looking after cows, pigs, chickens, etc. either.
Comment by Susan Fox — May 23, 2009 @ 7:02 pm
And hence the leveling and rebuilding of the USDA to take the greater interests of consumers int account.
After all, even people who don’t care about the animals in factory farms do care about disease-resistant bacteria and ground water pollution that results from these concentrated animal feeding operations.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 23, 2009 @ 7:03 pm
If people would ever “get” how much easier, and more pleasant, it is to raise a puppy who comes from a responsible breeder then that would go a long way toward putting the irresponsible ones out of business! And in addition to getting a well socialized, healthy, happy, SANE puppy these new owners are also getting Gina - they will be able to call or email or text her 24/7 for as long as they own that dog. And she’ll be there for them with support and answers and whatever that owner needs. Once you’ve experienced THAT KIND of support, you will never want anything less.
But as for just closing down the commercial breeders - that sounds so tempting but if you do that WITHOUT curtailing the incredible demand for puppies, what do you think will happen? Right now, responsible breeders only produce a tiny fraction of the dogs born every year, not nearly enough to fill the demand. Either the responsible breeders have to start breeding a lot more - not likely, since as Gina so aptly demonstrates it is an exhausting and expensive ordeal to do it right - or we have to educate consumers as to WHY it is worth the wait and the hassle to get a puppy from a responsible breeder. We’re a long way from that point.
Right now if we just cut off the commercial supply it will be “Pet Prohibition” with a whole black market opening up in puppy trade. And if you think that pups from commercial breeders here in the US have a bad start in life (and they do!!) it doesn’t compare with the puppymills that will spring up in Central America and Asia to fill the demand. Puppies smuggled in from Mexico are already a problem in California where so much anti-breeder legislation has been passed:
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/CustomsT.....uppies.xml
At the present point in time, the only solution I see is to try to ensure that commercial kennels are as humane as possible - and continue to educate the public as to why a puppy shouldn’t be an impulse purchase.
Comment by Barb — May 23, 2009 @ 7:06 pm
Bravo Gina, excellent post.
Comment by Nancy Freedman-Smith CPDT — May 23, 2009 @ 7:11 pm
I have to disagree, Barb. I think that commercial kennels are inhumane by definition since they can’t possibly provide the large numbers of puppies they produce the start they deserve and no amount of lipstick is going to improve that pig.
And I don’t think it’s an either/or. The public needs to continue to be educated (the demand side) and the puppy mills need to be closed down (the supply side).
Comment by Susan Fox — May 23, 2009 @ 7:33 pm
To reply to Carol: There are lots and LOTS of breeders who “care enough to help”. But I have yet to see any legislation that is supposed to regulate puppymills that wouldn’t hurt the responsible breeders more than anyone.
Responsible breeders are hard to categorize, and neither the animal rights activists nor legislators understand them. They keep intact male and female dogs - most of whom will NEVER be bred - they keep them intact until they can be evaluated, for individual health reasons, for other reasons unrelated to procreation. They sometimes have what seems to some people to be a LOT of animals - some young ones in training, some adults being shown or doing work, some older retired ones. So laws that limit the number of intact animals one can own, or the total number of animals, or that charge high fees for intact animals all hurt the responsible breeder.
And since responsible breeders usually raise their puppies in their HOME - which is the ONLY place a puppy who will primarily be a pet SHOULD be raised - laws that have strict rules for kennel licensing and inspection usually mean that the responsible breeder’s own HOME might be subject to unannounced inspections and warrantless searches. That is vastly different than licensing and inspecting a business - it doesn’t matter that you have done nothing wrong and have nothing to hide.
But that comes down to the final element, that legislators and animal rights activists just don’t understand. Even though money does change hands, breeding dogs responsibly is NOT - and never really can be - a BUSINESS. That doesn’t mean you don’t keep records, of course you do. But there is no profit unless you are very lucky - and even then you won’t be paid anything for your time. It’s something that is done because it is worthwhile, and because it actually is a socially responsible thing to do. Hard to believe in this age of “Don’t breed or buy” but preserving rare and heritage breeds and producing the healthiest, soundest, best possible individuals of ANY breed IS truly a good and responsible thing to do.
Responsible breeders HAVE been remiss in not helping legislators craft laws that would help regulate commercial breeding and improve the living conditions of the animals WITHOUT penalizing the responsible breeders. I do think it can be done. After seeing all the anti-breeding laws proposed all over the country lately, I hope we can become more active in that area. For ALL the animals.
Comment by Barb — May 23, 2009 @ 7:39 pm
I agree there are reputable breeders,the problem is that they will not join in with the groups fighting the puppy millers.
And I’m sorry but I call BS. That’s propaganda put out by the “breeder is a breeder is a breeder” liars.
Go read what the AKC parent club delegates told the AKC when they wanted to set up a registration deal with Petland:
http://www.doggedblog.com/dogg....._deal.html
http://www.doggedblog.com/dogg.....pdate.html
http://www.doggedblog.com/dogg.....conta.html
http://www.doggedblog.com/dogg....._2_or.html
http://www.doggedblog.com/dogg.....ate_3.html
Go follow the links back to breed rescue for every single AKC breed that is a puppy mill favorite and see how they beg and implore people not to buy puppies from pet stores, and deplore puppy mills, and educate people looking for breed info on what to avoid in their puppy search.
The Code of Ethics of EVERY SINGLE AKC PARENT CLUB specifically prohibits selling puppies to pet stores, pet dealers, retailers, wholesalers, etc.
Lastly, thousands upon thousands of reputable breeders do breed rescue, including puppy mill rescue. I know many of them and have written their stories in my column and on this blog.
It is a baseless lie to say that breeders and fanciers aren’t standing in the fight against puppy mills. They are. But their efforts are ignored and denied, and many of them are shunned and reviled when they try to volunteer at shelters, offer to foster, or even offer to help with pregnant animals or orphaned litters. I know because it has happened directly to me, just because I owned intact animals.
There are shelters that won’t even let anyone who owns an intact animal VOLUNTEER TO CLEAN UP SHIT IN KENNELS.
So please don’t keep repeating this stuff. It’s demonstrably false and it shouldn’t be perpetuated.
Yes, there is a tiny little subset of libertarian dog breeders who have bought into the “we have to defend everyone’s right to breed in order to protect ours,” but they are the minority. Go read those links I gave in the beginning of this comment then come back and tell me they’re the voice of all breeders.
Comment by Christie Keith — May 23, 2009 @ 7:44 pm
The question was asked, why aren’t reputable breeders joining in the fight against puppy mills - but I think the better question is, why are so many rescuers willing to turn their backs on the reputable breeders? In so many discussions about MSN and other anti-breeding laws, when the objection is made that those laws will harm the responsible breeders, so many rescuers go “too bad - if a few good breeders go down in the cause of getting rid of a lot of bad ones it is worth it.”
Well there aren’t that many reputable breeders as it is, and if you aren’t careful they will be gone. Then what? Don’t you love your breed? Do you want to see it become extinct… or alternately, do you want to leave its future in the hands of people who either break the law or who cut so many corners and make their breeding program so profitable that they are able to afford steep breeder permits? Because those are the only breeders who will be left.
Comment by Ann — May 24, 2009 @ 12:19 am
Hear hear, Christie!!!!! Beautifully said!
I suspect in my lifetime, it will become impossible for people to obtain puppies from the Ginas of this world. The ARs and their ignorant minions like Carol will have won the dog breeding war and that breaks my heart.
Comment by Anne T — May 24, 2009 @ 3:30 am
Auntie Gina,
Sounds like you are doing a great job. Thanks for posting the picture of me, even if you did have to include Otter. I’ve been thinking… if you are so happy with the puppies, you can keep ours. Really, I have have enough to do around here keeping Mom in line.
XXXXX -Bogey
(PS. you could send more of those special treats instead of a puppy as far as I’m concerned.)
Comment by Verde — May 24, 2009 @ 5:58 am
I ask you this, would you knowly sell your pup to someone who planned on using it in a Commercial Kennel. If the answer is NO then why not help us protect the poor innocent animals who are living in those cages. There seems to be no breeders who care enough to help.
Comment by Carol — May 23, 2009 @ 5:34 pm
Carol, is that a lie, or just plain ignorance?
Many, many rescues subscribe to a theory I call Breeder Cooties: If someone has any intact animals, no matter what the number, and no matter how many of them are finished champions, no matter how many of them have performance titles as well, no matter if they have produced one litter twenty years ago, or never produced a litter at all, they cannot foster, adopt, or participate in any way other than maybe donating cash, because bad breeders do exist and are part of the problem—and the same organizations that intensively screen potential adopters without intact animals, are apparently incapable of screening anyone who does, to determine who is responsible and who is not.
Despite that, responsible breeders do a lot of rescue, informally or in their own organizations. But they can’t pull from shelters, even the highest high-kill shelters, because they have intact animals, and are therefore Evil…
Comment by Lis — May 24, 2009 @ 6:03 am
That, dear readers, is what happens when Christie pulls out her stiletto. Bring the facts, or bleed to death from a million tiny cuts of truth.
6:30 a.m. time to clean the puppy pen. And then repeat yesterday’s schedule. With an added bonus: Pizza and temperament/ability testing tonight.
***
Special note to Bogey from his sister Heather: Suck it up, dear brother. I love you, but if you think I’m going to raise your puppy for you, you’re crazy. As you well know (being also 12.5 years old), I am old and I don’t have the energy I did when I was a young dog. Their mother can barely keep up with the puppies, and I don’t even try. I hope you like your new bundle of energy. Love, Heather
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 24, 2009 @ 6:32 am
“The HSUS has an excellent primer on what to look for in a compassionate breeder, here (PDF). I agree with their advice: If someone doesn’t measure up, walk away.”
Really? Do you think that most people can do that — find the breeder, drive the 2 hours to meet him and the puppies, play with the puppies, etc. Probably with a kid or two in tow.
And then walk away?
I cannot wait for the Ad Council research to give some hard data on the reason why people get a puppy or dog and how long the AVERAGE person — the person who makes up the bulk of the puppy-buying public, not the educated, research-savvy, plan-ahead people — keeps a dog before rehoming.
My guess is that many (most?) people wander into a Petland and see that little face and boom. They don’t care about the Puppy Mill protesters out on the sidewalk. They don’t care about the $600 or $900+ price tag (that’s what Visa is for). They want to RESCUE that puppy because doesn’t he deserve a home too?
This is an emotional decision. My first pet was three years old when I brought her home. I didn’t think about genetics or testing or health issues. It was 90% emotional. The other 10% was my head doing a small bit of math, calculating how much I thought she MIGHT rack up in vet bills.
Why do people get puppies from non-elite breeders? Yes, elite, because I am going to guess (because it’s too hard to find the data) that reputable breeders comprise maybe what, 10 or 5 percent of breeders? Feel free to correct this assumption.
So they go to Craigslist breeders for their puppies because it’s easier, and because the perception is it’s cheaper. I went to a few breeder websites after reading this post. I picked Labrador Retriever breeders. Of the FEW that listed their prices, the first one I found had puppies for $1800!!
When the PWD puppy moved into the White House, there was an article about his father. That dog’s stud fee was listed as $1900!!!
Do you see how the average person might get the impression that small-batch breeders might be priced in the Mercedes Benz level, when all J Q Public wants is a nice Toyota dog?
I don’t see how any of these misunderstandings will improve without standardized transparency on the part of ALL dog distributers. Breeders — all breeders, even the “put two AKC dogs together” people — retailers, shelters. For example, the shelters I work with could do a much better job at presenting the animal’s background. On the kennel sheets, So many owners give the reason of “no time” when dumping their animals. It makes me nuts — what does that MEAN? I want more detail! And I think prospective adopters want it too!
I wish all animals came with the equivalent of the nutrition label that sure seems like my RIGHT to see on the food package — why shouldn’t I know how much trans fat is in this cracker? — but I would guess that even “reputable” food manufacturers fought the label laws when they were proposed.
I am extremely active in the rescue and shelter and education/advocacy world. (Not for dogs, by the way, so my data is only partially relevant here) You know, the cooties people! I receive emails or calls from at least 20-40 different animal owners a week. I talk to very few people who breed or who buy from breeders. Based on the level of ignorance I find in most animal lovers (and I am not saying that out of meanness), my guess is that most people think that AKC papers are the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, and that as long as a puppy has papers it’s a quality puppy.
On one of those links that Christie posted, a member of the Jack Russell Club said they pulled out of the AKC and it has not hurt them (re: desirability of puppies). If the AKC brand becomes tarnished even in the eyes of the general public, is there another “objective” party that can give a seal of approval? I think that’s what the average buyer needs for this to turn around.
So, why do people go to sub-standard breeders or pet stores for puppies? Because they are deciding too much with their hearts. Because it’s too confusing to figure out who the good guys are. Because breeders who hide their pricing scare people. Because some breeder puppies ARE priced in the stratosphere.
Regularly in these comments I see shelters bashed for their tendency to blame irresponsible owners for the high kill rate. (and that is a HUGE factor, in my opinion). But that’s what I see happening in this thread — themasses blamed for not doing enough research, or for not wanting to wait two years (!) for their pet. What about those folks who lose an elderly dog and want a new puppy NOW to help soften the grief? Or parents who want their children to grow up with the dog?
I am pretty logical, but the decisions I’ve made re: animals have not been all that calculated. (Ex: taking in time-consuming foster animals when I already do a ton of volunteer animal work). I can only assume it’s the same for other people — and 10 times more so when it comes to baby animals.
Comment by Mary Mary — May 24, 2009 @ 7:44 am
Comments by Mary Mary, May 24, 2009 @ 7:44 am
“My guess is that most people wander into a Petland and see that little face and boom.” “They don’t care about the $600 or $900+price tag.” “They want to RESCUE that puppy because doesn’t he deserve a home too.” This is exactly what a friend of mine did. She would walk into her groomer’s business and see this adorable schnauzer and go ga-ga over him. The groomer/breeder told her he was a “toy” schnauzer and would be not more than 5 pounds. My friend had to have him. I took one look, and said that is NOT a “toy” but a mini. Well, one year later, guess who has adopted the schnauzer. I’m now taking grooming lessons so I can groom him properly myself and he is now also in obedience training one year and 2 months later. Basically he is a smart, good dog but he does have some issues which I am working on. Had circumstances been different, a schnauzer would not be my first choice of a dog for myself but the first day she brought the little guy home, I knew I had to commit to giving him a loving, caring home which I knew he was going to need because I knew she would not/did not want to expend the time to be able to care for him.
Comment by VJ — May 24, 2009 @ 8:27 am
Lot of good discussion material here, but one point I want to be sure to make again: The “elite” breeder costs less than a puppy mill dog at a pet store. That Mercedes? You’re getting the Toyota price.
(Interesting piece lately — can’t recall where … The New Yorker? — about on how some children/people are able to defer immediate reward for greater gain later. Some of it’s built in, some of it’s cultural … and all of it can be taught or self-taught to make better life decisions.)
As for the shocking (two exclamation point!!) stud fee for the Obama dog … do you have any idea how much that dog’s owner paid in genetic testing and costs for competition to get him to the point of being wanted/worthy of contributing to the continuation of a heritage breed? I’ll guarantee you it was far in excess of $1900. My costs in McKenzie well exceed $10K — genetic screening, training and competitions — not even including the normal costs of keeping a dog. Same on the dad side. “ROI”: $3600 (Four puppies @ $900 each — one puppy stays, one goes to the owner of the dad — no stud fee).
Makes that stud fee a little less shocking, doesn’t it? As for the $1800 Labradors … if the dog is from proven working field trial lines, the cost of getting that dog to the point of being considered breeding quality can be in the tens of thousands, field trials being about the most expensive of canine competition.
I tend to point people to shelters and rescues first, by the way, unless they’re looking for a family companion that can also compete.
But the wait isn’t that long if you network. In my breed, you can get a well-bred dog from a home-based, reputable and compassionate breeder within a couple of months or less — yes, IF you’re well-suited for such an active, smart dog, otherwise the breeder will say “no.” (Case in point: A person who wanted one of my puppies was referred to another person — that family has a puppy this weekend.) As Christie points out, if the breeder or rescuer says no, that doesn’t mean you’re a bad home. It does mean that you’re not the RIGHT home for the puppy you want — MINE. And I maintain that it’s my job to make that decision, same as when I was running a breed rescue, fostering and placing 30 dogs a year.
Many breeders have adult dogs they are looking to place because they’re not fitting into a breeding program. (They don’t get to stay often because of … hello! … limit laws. ) These may be champions or otherwise titled in canine competitions, they’ll surely be lovely dogs inside and out and they’ll all be trained and socialized. These adults may well suit people who aren’t up to puppies, by the way. Three of my four retrievers I have shared my life with (Ben, Heather and Woody) are such “rejects,” including the Queen of all pets here, Ms. Heather.
And why I do this? Clearly, it’s not about making money. My motivation is two-fold: 1) The preservation of a heritage breed on the meta scale; and 2) The raising of great family and working companions on the micro scale.
I believe in these goals, and I’m not ashamed to be involved. I have been involved for decades before breeding this first litter, in doing breed rescue, and in supporting the breeder of my dogs by paying for genetic testing on non-breeding dogs to add to the body of knowledge.
What I am doing now is NOT preventing a shelter pet from finding a home.
Now … the larger issue is about all-or-nothing stands on these issues:
“Until there are NONE, adopt one” and “Don’t breed or buy while shelter pets die” on one side vs. the extreme libertarian view of some even good breeders that no one should be able to tell them what to do with their dogs (or kids, for that matter!).
The fact is we DON’T have to either-or this. There are other ways and lot of gray. There is lots and lots of common ground to work together in getting sheltered pets into forever homes without eliminating heritage breeds. It’s a lie — no, it’s a damn lie — that I and other reputable breeders don’t care about these pets.
In fact, a SMALL percentage shift to rescue/shelter from the puppy mill retail outlets/puppy mill Internet sales would more than take up all the adoptable/can be make adoptable dogs and cats in need of homes. (Rabbits are another situation entirely … again, targeted solutions for specific problems. TNR for feral cats to shut off the tap, as an example.)
But it’s patently not true that if I didn’t breed this litter the five people waiting for these puppies would have gone to a shelter instead. Not because they’re “elitist” but because they want a predictable working companion AND they want to be part of preserving a heritage breed.
Many people don’t care about either of those things, and would be over-the-moon happy for a great, well-socialized canine companion. We just have to work TOGETHER to help them find that dog in places other than the mall.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 24, 2009 @ 8:31 am
And I absolutely agree with you, Mary Mary, about the AKC. Many reputable breeders do, by the way.
As Christie wrote: “AKC, I wish I knew how to quit you.”
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 24, 2009 @ 9:10 am
You and others in the champion/show world know the reasons why certain puppies cost $1800 and why a stud fee is $1900 — but can you see why that would scare away the average person?
If I go to five websites and only ONE lists the puppy’s price and it’s almost $2,000? And then I read in the paper that stud fees are that high too?
The exclamation marks I put after those numbers are not my way of saying the puppy/stud is not WORTH that amount. It’s my way of saying the average person is justified at fainting of sticker shock.
Again, why can’t it all be more transparent? Why can’t there be, say, five variables that are up front and center on EVERY breeder website: 1) price of puppy 2) whether or not the dogs undergo genetic testing 3) how many times the female is bred 4) what clubs the breeders belong to and 5) how long they’ve been breeding.
If not all five, just the first two would do.
Comment by Mary Mary — May 24, 2009 @ 2:13 pm
You and others in the champion/show world know the reasons why certain puppies cost $1800 and why a stud fee is $1900 — but can you see why that would scare away the average person?
Comment by Mary Mary — May 24, 2009
You can’t have it both ways: That kind of puppy price DOESN’T scare away the average person. That’s why puppy-mill mall retail outlets are in business, catering to the “average person” who don’t seem to have sticker shock. Again: Pet store puppies usually cost MORE than a puppy from a reputable breeder.
Over on PetHobbyist.com, Christie’s crew has long maintained breeder listings that ask for four our of five of your criteria:
http://www.doghobbyist.com/breederregistry/
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 24, 2009 @ 2:26 pm
Well, this just goes to show how much more I have to learn. I have no idea what pet stores charge. $1800? Really?
I may need to take 5 or 10 Valium some sunny afternoon and wander into a Petland myself, just to see what the market is bearing.
D’oh. Just remembered. My PO says I’m not allowed within 75 feet …
Will send a minion.
Comment by Mary Mary — May 24, 2009 @ 2:38 pm
How about $6500 for a “teacup Maltese”? Pet store in Florida. http://www.wizardofclaws.com/
Google the name of the shop and see what else you find. Valium first, though. Or remove all breakables nearby.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 24, 2009 @ 2:56 pm
Breeders who strongly identify as “responsible breeders” almost never list their puppy prices, because the culture of “responsible breeders” makes that feel just a little dirty and commercial.
I actually think listing prices would be a good thing, I’m just saying that there is a kind of cultural pressure NOT to list them; it makes them feel like the point is profit, which it typically isn’t.
One of the downsides of this, of course, is that someone would think, well, if that Shih Tzu at the mall is $2000, imagine what that puppy would cost from a fancy show breeder!
But the truth is, you can get a nice Shih Tzu puppy from a show breeder for less than half that, and sometimes far less.
Comment by Christie Keith — May 24, 2009 @ 3:39 pm
When I was much (much, much….) younger, I used to get so excited to see a pet store that actually had PUPPIES! The local one didn’t. It never occurred to me that any of them came from a place that wouldn’t be considered “responsible”. I mean, how could anyone not take the best possible care of PUPPIES?
Silly me. Older, but wiser. But how many people still make the same assumption because it’s inconceivable to them that anyone could be cruel to dogs and raise them in large numbers in disgusting conditions just to make a buck. Maybe that’s part of the problem.
Comment by Susan Fox — May 24, 2009 @ 3:54 pm
My in-laws have a nice shih-tzu which I found for them two years ago. both parents champions, CERF, and OFA. $650.00.
Just fostered a rescue bulldog from a commercial kennel “web-mill” in MO. A “bargain” for $2800.00, now up for adoption via rescue.
Showed a one year old bulldog I co-bred to a nice family looking for an older puppy or young adult. He has good knees, eyes, skin etc… and a lovely temperament. Has not turned out to have the stamina or more athletic conformation either I or my co-breeder are looking for. Will be a fantastic companion though. $1400.00 including tons of socialization, training in basic obedience, house-trained, all shots and neutered
Comment by JenniferJ — May 24, 2009 @ 4:32 pm
Mary Msry —
I took a stab at this last November:
http://cynography.blogspot.com.....-this.html
$900 for a Lab puppy at Petland in Pittsburgh. (No doubt higher in high-dollar markets such as NY or Miami). Toy-breed and small mongrel pups are twice as high.
The prices are NOT on the cages. People would run pretty fast if they saw the price before the pup was in their arms.
Many breed club websites will give prospective purchasers a ballpark range for what to expect to pay for a pup.
The argument that people are irrational when it comes to decisions about pets, and doing research and finding out the right things to do is “difficult,” strikes me as defeatist.
Some people are irrational about cars. They want the one with way more horsepower than they need, the cute one, the red one, the one that looks like army guys should drive it. They don’t care about gas mileage, safety, or reliability. They are sitting ducks for car dealers selling undercoating and tacking on ADM.
Does this mean that Consumer Reports should just hang it up and go home?
Does this mean that we shouldn’t regard someone who bought a vomit-yellow Hummer because it was super kewl as a confirmed dingbat, and openly mock him as he sobs at the gas pump?
The fact is that many people are 90% rational about a pet, and 10% SENTIMENTAL, which is not the same as irrational if it’s balanced on top of that 90%.
If I was not sentimental, I wouldn’t have my bestest boy Moe, who has turned into my right hand dog here on the farm. But it was not irrational to keep him.
And with education plus strong social pressure and sanctions we can keep chipping at the demand side of the puppymill production chain.
I’m in the business of helping people who may be more than 10% sentimental in their dealings with their pets, and often woefully misinformed by pop media and marketing — so what they think is rational is just wrong. Those who are frankly irrational are generally beyond help until they get their own shit together. But that doesn’t mean that animal professionals have to enable them because of our own sentimentality. IMO we are honor-bound to do the opposite.
Comment by H. Houlahan — May 24, 2009 @ 4:37 pm
fyi- my Collie from a super breeder with champs on both sides and every medical test that could be done-done-$600. Pups at the local pet store , the one with the balls to put a sign in the window “Our puppies do not come from “puppy mills” but are from USDA kennels. with no such care, love or screenings, start @ $1200.
Comment by Nancy Freedman-Smith CPDT — May 24, 2009 @ 5:07 pm
And let’s not forget the adage that “cheap can be expensive.” My first dog was a bulldog, and we screwed up in every way we could — we didn’t want to wait, we didn’t want to travel, we were shocked at the prices we were hearing, until someone we called from a classified ad referred us to someone else who had puppies. They were ready to go, a few hundred dollars less than any others we’d seen advertised, and within driving distance. We drove out and bought our dog.
The place was clean, they seemed like a nice family, there were a lot of pets around — and we’d never heard the term “back yard breeder.” Over the nine years of that little girl’s life, we spent thousands and thousands on vet bills. We may have been fools, but once we brought her home, she was family. What she wasn’t, was a bargain.
There’s no guarantee that a well-bred dog will be healthy, but the odds are certainly better.
Comment by Susan — May 24, 2009 @ 5:40 pm
Ditto, Nancy. Our collie comes from super lines and had all the appropriate care. Also $600.
Comment by Susan Fox — May 24, 2009 @ 5:53 pm
My greatest frustration comes from teacup almost anything. MOST of these are runts (in the true sense, ie a pup with inborn weakness and inability to thrive, NOT just a small puppy), thyroid cases or poor doers. Some are functional liver-shunt pups.
1500-6500.00 for a puppy I would be ashamed to GIVE to some one as I know the life of misery it could potentially lead and the misery it may bring to a caring and unsuspecting owner.
I, like many breeders, have had a puppy with serious issues. He lived with me for the two plus years of really good quality life he had alloted to him and died in my arms at the vet painlessly before his condition had a chance to seriously debilitate him. This year our rescue has had one dog with his same condition and two others with ultimately fatal health defects, none of which were sold to the unsuspecting owners for less than 3 grand a piece.
Comment by JenniferJ — May 24, 2009 @ 5:55 pm
JenniferJ-agreed! Even my daughters ages 7 and 11 are forever telling people they don’t even know, who tell them they have a tea cup “there is no such thing as tea cup in your breed.” I guess it is rude and bit know it all-y, but at the same time, nice to know they caught a clue.Of course some brreds do come tea cup, but they know which ones.
Comment by Nancy Freedman-Smith CPDT — May 24, 2009 @ 6:11 pm
We get calls all the time for “mini” bulldogs. I reply that I would be happy to send them to good information sources for frenchies. While the bulldog was once recognized as having a “lightweight” division (whose re-instatement I would whole-heartedly endorse) most “miniature” bulldogs are the result of breeding little to little with no concern for any other criteria such as health or temperament. OR for finding out WHY they are little to begin with.
The mini breeders don’t rescue. The reputable EB breeders who rescue end up with these little guys instead. A goodly proportion are true dwarfs and will live less than 5 years due to their condition. But as cute little puppies they went for BIG BUCKS.
Comment by JenniferJ — May 24, 2009 @ 6:25 pm
I have seen some horrifying websites advertising “miniature Frenchies” listing their weights as 2 lbs or so — these sites show PHOTOS of the pups (sitting in little tea-cups, how cute) in which they look half dead, and the prices being asked are double the price of a healthy Frenchie from a terrific breeder. This isn’t walking into Petland and falling in love with the cute puppy. This is just stupidity.
Comment by Susan — May 24, 2009 @ 6:30 pm
Fuglyhorse did quite a post a few months ago on minature horses. Lots of the same issues. Heartbreaking photos. Long list of congenital problems.
What IS it with these people who are obsessed with tiny animals? Both breeding and buying. It predates Ms. Hilton, who did, however, contribute to making it worse.
Those of you who have dealt with them- why do they want them? It seems to be mostly women. Looking for child substitutes?
Comment by Susan Fox — May 24, 2009 @ 6:31 pm
I think man people have NO clue how tiny 2-4 pounds is. I have three toy fox terriers who range from 6-8 pounds and they are tiny!
!0-12 pounds is plenty small enough for most people who desire or need a light weight dog.
A 6 to 8 pound tft can be a solid little dog. OFA hips. elbows, knees, heart, thyroid and CERF eyes with NORMAL dentition and no problems with their nervous systems along with round, heavy enough bone to run with the big dogs, jump off of things etc.. oh and free whelp, easily. 2-4 pound one? No way.
We had a 31/2 pound little girl. Not planned. Thankfully healthy enough but fragile and dainty. Spayed and placed with a friend who had experience with tiny little dogs via chihuahua rescue. She insisted on paying for the spay. That was it. I could have sold her for a
fortune, damn!
Comment by JenniferJ — May 24, 2009 @ 7:25 pm
“Those of you who have dealt with them- why do they want them? It seems to be mostly women. Looking for child substitutes?”
More like a cute fashion accessory / stuffed animal substitute.
Comment by Pai — May 24, 2009 @ 9:57 pm
I dunno why people want hamster-sized (but not hamster-priced) dogs.
Why do pierogi-fed chickas in Pittsburgh wear belly shirts and tourniquet-style hip-huggers? Because Britney does? (Do they not know what the term “muffin top” now denotes?)
I was in a store one day when one of these bubbleheads grabbed a dog handbag and screeched to her friend “I WANT A DOG THAT WILL FIT INTO THIS!”
In much the same way that my niece desperately wants the PINK iPod and THIS glitter nail polish.
The tiny dog is presented relentlessly as a consumer item and fashion accessory.
Quick, can you tell me one temperament trait of Paris Hilton’s purse dog? One trick it knows?
Not a dog at all. An accessory.
Comment by H. Houlahan — May 25, 2009 @ 12:19 am
Last year, I took some visiting relatives to the mall, where we encountered our first Obnoxious Woman with a Dog in a Purse.
This lady was shopping with her mother, and kept pointing at everything and begging for it- “Ohhh, MOMMY, I want this!” “Mommy, LOOK! Please?” She was decked out entirely in trendy, color-coordinated pink stuff- including a pair of pink Victoria’s Secret sweatpants that had “PINK” embroidered across the butt… or what little of said butt they happened to be covering. Bleach-blonde hair, one too many trips to the tanning salon. Everything about her demeanor/behavior just screamed Paris Hilton. At first glance, from behind, I was convinced she was a teenager. Then, she turned around. This woman was not a day younger than FORTY. Yeesh.
I bent over to get a better look at one of the sale racks, and her Burberry bag started whimpering. Inside the bag was a teacup maltese. She’d picked the bag out FIRST (because it was on sale and soooooo cute she couldn’t resist) and THEN looked for a cute puppy to stuff inside it, she explained.
I felt very sorry for that dog. I’m hoping I’m wrong, but I have a sneaking suspicion that when the bag goes out of style, so too will the cute puppy.
Comment by 3FabulousFelines — May 25, 2009 @ 1:21 am
These “women” and I use that noun very reluctantly, have never gotten over playing with dolls and miniature accessories. It’s not a child substitute thing, it’s a childhood/Peter Pan syndrome, IMHO.
Where’s that barf bag that I needed at Gina’s mere mention of WizardofClaws? I need it again.
Comment by Anne T — May 25, 2009 @ 3:21 am
you get the same thing in the rabbit world. People want tiny rabbits…but think not of the price to the animals to get them that way.
Comment by Annette — May 25, 2009 @ 5:49 am
JenniferJ-agreed! Even my daughters ages 7 and 11 are forever telling people they don’t even know, who tell them they have a tea cup “there is no such thing as tea cup in your breed.” I guess it is rude and bit know it all-y, but at the same time, nice to know they caught a clue.Of course some brreds do come tea cup, but they know which ones.
Comment by PB — May 27, 2009 @ 2:03 am
Remember that pet store with the $6,500 “teacup” puppies? One of the owners just filed for bankruptcy. Per the HSUS:
“One of the owners of the Florida based pet store, Wizard of Claws, filed for Ch. 7 Bankruptcy yesterday after the Broward County Circuit Court issued a ruling this week refusing to dismiss several defendants from the major class action lawsuit. The suit, filed in 2007, accuses Wizard of Claws, its owners, and its affiliates of defrauding customers by misrepresenting the origin of puppies, and by selling puppy mill dogs who suffer from severe health problems and genetic defects.”
Oh gosh, what a darn shame! (Here’s the paperwork).
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 28, 2009 @ 12:37 pm
What a wonderful post. With your permission I am cross posting for all to read, printing this for anyone who is thinking of getting a puppy and sending to all I know.
Thanks for writing this. You should be so very proud.
Tara
Comment by Tara Choules of Dog Training Ireladn — June 17, 2009 @ 3:18 am