Wanna help veterinarians do better for cats?
By Gina Spadafori
May 14, 2009
Got an interesting e-mail from Brendan Howard, the senior editor at Veterinary Economics magazine. Frankly, I’m a little worried that publishing his request will mean I’ll be flooded with people wanting us to provide them access to information for books or articles, but hey, it’s not as if I’m not capable of saying “no.”
Besides, I thought Mr. Howard’s request could help make some kitties’ lives a lot better, and I’m all for that. So here’s his e-mail:
I’m working on a story about how veterinarians can make their practices more cat-friendly, and I want to ask pet owners what unpleasant or unlikable things veterinarians did in the exam room or outside of it that made them take their cats elsewhere. Specifically cat-unfriendly things…comments, misinformation, lack of interest in cats.
I read your blog all the time, and I dig the commenters. So I thought I’d
ask if you’d blog the question to your followers and see what shows up. I
could use the items anonymously or contact the owners personally for
interviews.
So what do you think? What would help make veterinary care better for your cat? Put your thoughts in the comments, or drop him a line.
And read more food for thought on this subject on Dolittler.
I’m not the target audience here, but I need to say WOW what an enlightened vet!
Good for you.
Comment by Mary Mary — May 14, 2009 @ 1:29 pm
When I have a scardy cat that is terrified about going to the vet office, I usually have to pass by large dogs whose owners let the leash wrap around my legs.
My cat and I would like separate waiting rooms.
My cat would feel less terrified, even though I always cage said cat. I would feel less “tied up” and free of a leash (even though I am not a dog).
Go ahead, dog owners, hate me. I really like dogs, but I do not want to wear a leash around my legs!
Wait a minute—my cats say more catnip smell in the office, please.
Comment by Colorado Transplant — May 14, 2009 @ 2:01 pm
Well, I had a hyperT cat who needed to get his blood pressure checked. I’d never done this before, so didn’t know what to expect. We were put into a room for a while, then a tech came in with the equipment. Fortunately, this was an easy going cat who didn’t have issues with being handled, so I figured that we’d be ok.
The vet who came in was not our regular vet - one of the hospital vets because that’s where the equipment was. We’re in a small, tile room and she starts talking LOUDLY at us about how this is not an easy thing to do with cats and she didn’t know if we’d even get anything useful…
She was so loud in this small room that *I* was cringing and I know it was bothering the cat (ears went back at the sound of her) , so I asked her politely to please tone it down a bit. She laughed (loudly) and said that her husband is always telling her the same thing, she’s just a loud person! No sensitivity to the cat’s stress levels - first red flag.
Next, they proceeded to shave the underside of my cat’s tail (ok, they need a skin connection, that’s fine) which he tolerated with stoic dignity. Then the vet picks up a spray bottle of ALCOHOL and sprays it directly on this cat’s freshly shaved tail! A SPRAY BOTTLE - on a cat! Alcohol on newly shaved skin!
The cat starts freaking out (understandably so) - spray bottle means “get off the counter” and he’s up on a table, so he’s trying to get down, but now it stings and they’re holding him there… Red flag number two - clueless behavior, not listening to the owner (who just tried to stop the spray bottle nonsense, but was too late to stop it completely) and no empathy for the cat.
I get them to give him a moment to calm down, but the vet is getting impatient - she’s got things to do, places to be very loud at other people in small tile rooms…
Ok, I figure, let’s just get this over with - he’s as calm as he’s going to get at this point…so the next step is to apply the gel for the contacts - the vet pulls it out of a cabinet and moves to apply it - I stop her and ask if it’s been warmed at all? No, it’s room temp - small, cold, tile room temp. I ask her to give me a minute to warm some up in my hands for him - she declares me “an overprotective mother” and promptly slaps the cold gel on this cat’s freshly shaved bits. Red flag number three - insensitive cow in too much of a hurry to do it right.
The tech (who is apparently only there to do the actual reading because it takes a bit of finesse and she’s the best at it) then takes the cat’s blood pressure - which is through the roof. The vet “knew as much” and wrote me a prescription for blood pressure medication.
Bull.
The next day I contacted my regular vet and complained about the crass insensitivity of the hospital vet and how the reading we got was probably artificially high *because of the vet’s behavior*. She promptly set me up to retest the next day(no need to reshave him) with a different vet.
The next day, we’re in the same bloody room, but I’ve brought a towel for the cat so he doesn’t have to sit on a cold steel table forever. While we’re waiting, I’ve taken the gel out of the cabinet and shoved it under my arm to warm it up. I’ve brought tiny treats of raw duck (the cat’s fave) and a comb to soothe him.
He’s happily eating his duck bits and being combed on the table when the vet comes in - he opens the door carefully (because you can’t see who might be on the other side), then comes into the room quietly. He greets us with a soft voice, touches the cat, coos over him (something the other vet never did) and then tells me that the tech will be in with the equipment in a minute - is the cat calm enough or do I need more time? Sensitivity to the cat’s needs! I love him already.
The tech comes in (same tech) and hooks up the equipment. I asked if the alcohol was necessary - the smell of the stuff freaks this cat out and a spray bottle was NOT AN OPTION. He said no, the alcohol wasn’t needed at all, but the gel was, so we could have a few minutes while he hunted up a warm water bath to warm the tube… I knew I loved him.
I produced the now warm gel and he was pleased that we were ready to go. He proceeds slowly, explaining to the cat (and also me, but he was addressing the cat) in his soft, calm voice what he was doing and why and gently applied the warm gel to the now purring cat’s tail.
The tech took her readings and handed them to the vet who nodded and said, “Well, looks like his blood pressure is completely normal…possibly even a little low, but we get so many cats who are stressed, so maybe not. In any case, he certainly doesn’t need meds at this time.”
Same hospital, same tech, same equipment, two VERY different experiences and diagnoses!
Comment by mikken — May 14, 2009 @ 2:08 pm
When I said I would like separate waiting rooms, I meant one for dogs and one for cats— not one for me and one for the animals.
Whenever this has been the case, the cats have been less stressed out. Also the cats do not have to be terrified by the barking of dogs.
Comment by Colorado Transplant — May 14, 2009 @ 2:14 pm
I take my cat to a feline only practice, and I can’t believe the difference it’s made in how she deals with vet visits now.
For a “mixed” (cat and dog) practice, I think the most important thing is separate waiting areas. There’s nothing that stresses a cat more than having a dog stick his face in front of her carrier - no matter how friendly the dog might be.
Also - go slow with scared kitties! One of my pet peeves in my years of managing a veterinary practice were staff members who were in a hurry to get things done and wouldn’t take the time to approach a cat slowly. Cats are sensitive to energy, and they pick up on the person’s energy who’s about to do things to them. If they’re approached calmly, it really makes a difference in how they react. And tell the cat what’s going to happen - don’t just stick needles into her or thermometers up her rear. Communicating with cat patients throughout the procedure makes a huge difference.
Use Feliway - to spray exam tables, cages, treatment areas, etc. We found that it really makes a difference and helps calm down some cats.
Comment by Ingrid King — May 14, 2009 @ 6:19 pm
I don’t know that this is a cat-specific gripe…but it happened to me and my kitten when I took her to a new vet for her kitten shots.
They took her from me and carried her to the back of the office, and then occupied me with paying for her bill. They had given me a certain price for her shots, so when it came out to more I questioned it.
The man at the counter said, “It’s for the deworming.” I replied, “Deworming? I didn’t request that.” He said that all kittens who visit there get dewormed as common practice.
Now, that’s all fine and good…but I was never told about this prior to it happening. And since I didn’t get to accompany her to the back, how did I know for sure that she got either the shot or the deworming?
Needless to say, I never went back.
Comment by Marcy — May 14, 2009 @ 8:11 pm
I would put patient, respectful handling of the cat at the top of my list. And respect for the owner comes in a close second.
Our regular vet is great, but I had to take Eowyn (aka The Critter or The Little Terror) to the after=hours emergency vet once because she’d had a close call with a car that left some contusions and scrapes.
The B—— handled her like she was hunk of dead meat. Good thing she didn’t have any internal injuries. His manner was officious, patronizing and rude. I kept hoping Eowyn would get one paw loose and take his face off.
He mumbled a few things and I said, “So, your guess is that she had an encounter with a car?”
He looked at me like I was a faintly undesirable life form, puffed up and replied, “I NEVER guess.”
My husband was in the waiting area with Niki the collie, whose eyes never left the door to the examination rooms while “his kitty” was in there.
When we came out, the vet, such as he was, came out behind us, to call in the next “customer”, and Niki made it very clear that he didn’t like the guy At All by barking sharply at him. We’d never seen him do that before nor have we since.
A new 24 hour emergency vet opened her practice a couple of years ago, so we will never have to go to that sadistic SOB again.
Comment by Susan Fox — May 14, 2009 @ 8:18 pm
When I brought my extremely friendly cat in for an exam, a tech or helper or whatever he was put her in a choke hold for the vet. He had his entire body over her. It made me sick and I told him to let go of my cat immediately which he did. It was not necessary and stressed my cat.
When my cat was a kitten, they clipped her nails and the girl cut her quick, which made cutting difficult for me for a long time. If you don’t know what you are doing, don’t do it.
Comment by Nicole — May 14, 2009 @ 8:21 pm
I think the main thing for cats is . . . find a vet that understands cats. Years (and I mean years!!!) ago, a friend of mine from LA started working at a vet in SF. When I moved back to SF, I tried the vet he worked for as he talked about what a great “cat vet” he was. The man is fantastic with cats! Helped me through some serious problems with one of my kittens. But what really sold me on him was the first time I went there, I had a litter that we had just got from the SFSPCA. I brought the whole litter in for a check up and his initial reaction, enthusiasm, care for the litter was all the you would want. A few months later, after dealing with the “problem kitten” quite a bit with him, “problem kitten” needed to go in over a tooth issue. He was off that day, but I was able to get in to see the other vet. I can not even explain the difference in the 2 vets!!! Apparently, the other vet was more of a dog person. (my friend wasn’t there that day, or I would have been warned). Now, my current vets are good with both, but they do have a special way with the cats. I have been to the other 2 vet offices in my ‘hood, and neither one ranked as high, imo, with cats. One I would say is better with cats than she is with dogs over a certain size, but none handle cats (or dogs) to the level I like than my current vets. And I find it carries through with their staff.
I do think the waiting room is very important. If they can’t be separated, they need to make sure they have enough space and the front office staff minds what’s going on with the “patients” that are waiting. Because I work at home and my vet is within walking distance, I tend to go for the first appointment of the day because the waiting room is small and I like to avoid the dogs when I’m taking my cats in. If dogs do come in, they will at least get me into a room. When I’ve had to bring in the cats or my dog mid day , I have no problem waiting outside the door if there are barking dogs etc. They know where to find me :) We’re space challenged, here, so I don’t expect everyone to have the optimum waiting rooms, but if possible, I think that’s a good thing to look at.
I also think another thing to think about, depending on where you live, is, many cats are not used to leaving their home. My dog gets out and about everyday. My cats get out to go to the vet. It should be “assumed” a cat isn’t as socialized and special care should always be routine :) I think it may be common knowledge, but perhaps doesn’t translate to practice?
Comment by straybaby — May 15, 2009 @ 12:43 am
Thanks, Gina, for posting my question to your world of readers. I follow this blog via RSS feed regularly and love the entries, both the educational and the personal ones.
Thanks, readers, for the thoughtful responses! Keep ‘em comin’, if ya’ got ‘em!
Brendan Howard
Senior Editor, Veterinary Economics magazine
bhoward@advanstar.com
Comment by Brendan Howard — May 15, 2009 @ 6:47 am
When they take blood from my cat for any reason, whether it’s just a senior panel or to test something like the thyroid level, do it in the room.
I want to be there not only to help keep my kitty calm, but I’d like to know that they are messing up and trying over and over again before getting the blood.
Comment by Jennifer — May 15, 2009 @ 7:49 am
Some vets schedule so many appointments that it feels like one is on an assembly line. Also agree that cat and dog waiting rooms should be separate. Less stressful for everyone!
Comment by perkysmom — May 15, 2009 @ 8:10 am
Vets need to know more about feline nutrition and think less about making their so-called ‘prescription’ food sales more profitable. Cats are obligate carnivores and dry food predisposes this species to diabetes, CRF and IBD among other conditions. In 10 years of seeing diabetic cats go off insulin when their diets were changed to grain free canned or raw food I am more than convinced that nutrition is the biggest failing of almost all vet practices.
To help your vets out, here is a vet who has done the work http://www.catinfo.org/ . And 10 years ago it was a people nutrition expert, Dr. Barry Sears, who created a high protein/low carbohydrate diet that got my own cat off insulin in 10 days. There were no special foods with terrible ingredients then. The Hills Company should hang its head in shame for the malnutrition their products have engendered.
Comment by Gia Wolfe — May 15, 2009 @ 8:13 am
Some things I’ve really appreciated over the years:
- A bench in the exam room for carriers, so they’re off the floor away from feet, and easily accessible for quick, quiet ins and outs.
- Towels or bathmats on the exam table, so kitty paws have something to grip.
- Warm exam rooms. My senior cats and Sphynx have really appreciated them.
- A small floor scale. My more nervous cats haven’t readily sat still in the table scale, and my old vet used to just weigh himself with cat and without. It wasn’t exact, but it served two purposes: a ballpark weight that would be double-checked if necessary, and a quiet moment in the vet’s arms without poking and prodding. This was a simple routine I didn’t think about until I had to change vets (new city) and discovered its lack made a difference for those nervous cats!
- A treat before and afterwards. Not all of my cats have responded to this but the greedy ones do, and they’ve been more relaxed at the vets because of it. The most successful one, btw, was Easy Cheese.
Comment by Eucritta — May 15, 2009 @ 8:48 am
“Vets need to know more about feline nutrition . . . .
Comment by Gia Wolfe — May 15, 2009 @ 8:13 am”
I agree. My current vets are up on nutrition and when they have a new kitten/cat client, they give a handout on cat nutrition. The free samples they get from PFC, they keep in a large basket in the waiting room for people to share with people who may need help feeding their pets.
It’s very helpful having a vet informed in feline nutrition. For starters, I don’t get the “you’re killing your cat” attitude when they ask what I feed them {grin}, but also, it’s nice to be able to look at their diet in regards to their health and see if anything needs to change.
Comment by straybaby — May 15, 2009 @ 9:33 am
And listen to the owner! I had a cat who had long fur and tiny, wiggly veins. I told the vet (not our regular one) that the easiest way to draw blood from him was left hind leg, shave, and use a butterfly needle.
She said she was more comfortable with his right hind, shaved, and used a straight needle. After struggling and struggling, she relented (I didn’t say anything because the cat was ok with her struggling) and flipped him over, shaved the left leg and went with a butterfly needle - got him first time, easy as pie. She said that she was making a note in the chart, “next time follow owner’s advice on blood draw”.
Not all vets are willing to admit that the owner may have a clue about what works for their animals.
Comment by mikken — May 15, 2009 @ 9:38 am
I’m another who’s not a big fan of the take-the-kitty-to-the-back-for-everything approach. I happen to have the world’s friendliest, most easygoing cat, and there’s truly no need to whisk her away from the exam room for blood draws, etc. They don’t do that with my dogs, but seem to do it with all cats, regardless of temperament.
Some kitties (such as mine) would probably be happier remaining in the comfy exam room and can endure needles without blinking an eye. Just ask!
Comment by Dee Dee — May 15, 2009 @ 10:40 am
May I ask why some Vet’s are shunning the digital thermometer preferring to poke ones butt with old technology for taking a Temp? Or is it an affordability issue?
Comment by Kate — May 15, 2009 @ 11:02 am
Most incendiary remark to me from a vet is:
The cat is sick because you have been giving the cat human food.
Ye gads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment by Colorado Transplant — May 15, 2009 @ 11:28 am
Nutrition. Nutrition. Nutrition.
Cats shouldn’t eat dry food. Period. Stop accepting at face value what the Science Diet reps are telling the vet industry. Do a little research.
And please don’t take my cat (or my dog!) “into the back” for blood draws, vaccinations, injections or any other procedure that COULD be done in the exam room. I wouldn’t allow that with my child, either.
Comment by Patricia — May 15, 2009 @ 11:51 am
Please inform owners of side affects of medications beyond vomiting or diarrhea. Years ago if I had known one of the side affects of regular steroid use was feline diabetes, I would have looked for an alternative. After 7 years of at least 3 steroid shots per year for skin lesions, my domestic longhair developed diabetes. In all those years I was never told steroids are linked to diabetes.
Sharing your knowledge is important. Too often veterinarians seem to want to keep clients in the dark. We and our pets deserve better.
Comment by Vicky — May 15, 2009 @ 12:02 pm
DeeDee, as far as I know, some vets don’t like the digital thermometers because they’re not as accurate as the old-fashioned ones. Vets on here, correct me if this is wrong.
Comment by Ingrid King — May 15, 2009 @ 12:10 pm
Patricia, that is a very doctrinaire statement about dry food. And I doubt that there’s any truth to it. There are cautions a cat owner should be aware of, but that’s a different issue.
Comment by Susan Fox — May 15, 2009 @ 12:54 pm
I wish my vet had been more aware feline nutrition and it affect on cats overall health. My kitty was diagnosed with feline diabetes and put on Hills Science Diet dry crap. At the time I thought my vet new what she was doing, but later after my kitties glucose reading kept going up and up and she kept gaining weight I decided to do my own research on my kitty should be really eating. After doing a lot of research and reading a lot of opinions I change my kitties diet to all grain free wet food, and within a few weeks my kitty became a diet controlled diabetic, lost weight, and is acting like a kitten again. Fortunantly I shared all of what I learned with my vet and she has change her own cats diet to a grain free wet diet and now recommends this type of diet to all her clients. It would be nice if more vets would take the time to listen to their clients and actually look into thing such as diet for their selves and not rely on pet food companies for acurate information on cat nutrition.
Comment by marajade — May 15, 2009 @ 1:43 pm
An easy way to avoid having your dog or cat taken into the back? Just say no.
I simply don’t permit that. There’s no need for it. Anything that doesn’t require specialized equipment (like x-rays) or a sterile field (like surgery) can be done in my presence. And if not, it’s up to you (the vet staff)to convince me why. Hint: “Because that’s our policy” won’t do it.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 15, 2009 @ 2:17 pm
Comment by Eucritta — May 15, 2009 @ 8:48 am
- A bench in the exam room for carriers, so they’re off the floor away from feet, and easily accessible for quick, quiet ins and outs.
Bingo! My vet just changed from benches to chairs which I suppose he thought would be more comfortable for the people. But what it actually means is that now I have to either put my cat’s carrier on the floor, which I don’t like. Or put it up on a chair which tends to get me dirty looks from other folks who come in. Plus, when it was on the bench next to me, I could turn it to face me and talk to her. Now it has to face forward because of the chair arms. So not only can I not turn it to face me for “comfort talk”, but it’s facing out into the big scary room rather than reassuring, familiar me.
I want my waiting room benches back . . . . . . .
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 15, 2009 @ 2:27 pm
Separate waiting areas for cats and dogs. My cats are stressed enough going to the vet and then they have to hear dogs barking and have dogs coming over to sniff their cages. My vet clinic has chairs in the waiting room and the carrier doesn’t fit on them so I have to leave the carrier on the floor or balance it on my lap.
A comfortable sitting room with adjustable lighting for when one has to put a cat to sleep. It’s an awful experience as is but the clinical rooms with metal tables and bright lighting are just the worst!
Availability of seating in the exam rooms. I am legally disabled but not in a wheelchair. I can’t stand all that time and am always leaning on the table. My vet clinic recently put padded benches in the exam rooms which I very much appreciate. They’re also good to put your handbag and coat on, rather than the floor or metal table.
Warm throws for the cat to lay on or to wrap the cat in. One of my cats will let me do anything to and with her but is a terror at the vets. I bring my own throw, wrap her in it and work with the vet to examine her.
A bulletin board in the reception area where flyers about pets who need homes or who are lost can be posted. My clinic used to have one but now all they do is tape up notices which looks sloppy.
I was recently when surprised and somewhat hurt when I had to put my eldest cat who had cancer to sleep because I didn’t get a note from either of my two regular vets afterward. It’s a small gesture but means a lot. They know me and knew this cat very well. I felt like they didn’t care.
Don’t patronize me when I say I’ve done research on some condition or another. I may not be right, but at least respect that I care enough to try to be knowledgable.
Smile. Sounds simple but it means a lot when you walk into an exam room and the vet is smiling and then greets your cat as if he or she really cares. It makes a world of difference.
Comment by Judith — May 15, 2009 @ 3:46 pm
Having just lost my 13 plus year old much loved BuckyBeast to a gallant fight against heart disease and feline CRF last Thursday, I am having a wee bit of trouble responding because this hits so close to home.
My vet’s waiting room is miniscule, but has a bench, so the carrier can be placed facing me, giving a sense of saftey for the cat. Not only that, it’s part of a kitteh No Kill shelter, as that is where she is currently renting space. The exam room has a large east south east facing window catching the morning sun, and the exam table handily placed by it. Bucky enjoyed his morning visits, basking in the sunshine on a towel, being gently stroked, appreciated and apologized to for any discomfort he might experience. He was very much the kitty gentleman throughout his last ordeal. She has an intuitive way with her patients and their owners. I could choose to go to a more sophisticated state of the art clinic a few more miles down the road, but I really like how this vet responds to my animals and to me. She LISTENS to us both.
Comment by Anne T — May 15, 2009 @ 3:48 pm
Susan Fox, you may doubt there is any truth to the statement that cats should not eat dry food, but it absolutely correct. Please check out Dr. Lisa Pierson’s website related to feline nutrition: http://www.catinfo.org. You will be surprised what you learn.
Comment by Maddie — May 15, 2009 @ 4:27 pm
Most everybody has covered all of the things I wanted to say, but I just wanted to point out that for me, it’s not just about cats. Dog vets, horse vets, cow vets and pig vets too can make or break my critter’s visit with their attitude alone.
I realize there’s a whole lot of medical stuff I don’t know, and there’s a lot more technical and handling stuff that is REQUIRED for safely handling any animal. But, um, the vets that make my heart sing and have me calling them again are the ones who take the time to pay attention to the animal! I actually don’t mind if they don’t pander to me…if they are reading the creature, that’s 90% of the battle. Oddly enough, I find the vets that can’t read the animal often times are the very same ones that don’t listen to ME either.
Comment by LynnO — May 15, 2009 @ 11:41 pm
Comment by Maddie — May 15, 2009 @ 4:27 pm
Please check out Dr. Lisa Pierson’s website related to feline nutrition: http://www.catinfo.org. You will be surprised what you learn.
Were there any cites to scientific research findings in this article? (It was a long article, and I admit to sort of skimming through it).
I guess I just like to see something in addition to authoratative statements when people start making declarations of what is “truth” and what is not.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 15, 2009 @ 11:43 pm
If memory serves me correctly: Back in early 2008 AVMA started meetings called CATalyst Summits and were asking the same questions. It was as result of a poll in 2006(?) showing something like 36% of cats received NO pet care compared to approx 17% of dogs received NO pet care.
Personally, I think cat nutrition standards fall far behind what is known about dog nutrition and would put it at the top of the list for the VET industry to address with the pet food industry lobbyists.
The second on my list is the concern that the pet food industry funding so many vet schools doesn’t lend itself to the same level of care for cats if dogs are spending more money at the vet. Kind of a tangled topic there.
If the goal is to get more cats to the vet, then I would suppose that addressing feline nutrition issues and the science behind the foods would rank #1.
Plus, knowing the usable amount of nutrition in the foods… IMO, foods impact health of the animal.
If there’s no nutrition solutions (other than pfc pr spins) and the vets not standing up to the pet food industry for nutrition standards and safety, I don’t really feel very obligated to put much trust in the vet industry on those grounds as far as I consider that the #1 factor impacting my cats health.
Comment by Offy — May 16, 2009 @ 5:49 am
i agree very much with the low carb canned food approach. my diabetic cat improved so much that my vet keeps thinking she’s in remission because her nadirs are so nice (i happen to go to the vet around that time because of their availability). if you take a look at felinediabetes.com you will see many cats that have gone into remission with a low carb canned food diet and short course of insulin. in fact the lantus forum there has a running list of spreadsheets of cats on and off insulin now. empirical evidence may not meet your standards but you can find links there to scientific authorities as well.
mostly posting to agree that separate areas for dogs and cats are imperative. many cats are terrified of being trapped in their carriers with a dog jumping up to check them out, and many dog owners are not sensitive to this. a few weeks ago my friend and i brought her extremely sick (dying) cat to the vet and i had to move some dogs away from him. it made a very sad situation extremely stressful at times.
worst thing that happened to me? my vet whom i’d loved for 14 years failed me when my cat was diagnosed diabetic. she argued with me and told me pig insulin was closer to cat insulin than beef insulin is, and when i was upset about her delaying getting my 400+ glucose reading cat on insulin because my cat developed ketones she told me that i shouldn’t be upset and she was “just a cat” (she’s a cat-only vet). she also never told me some steroids might jumpstart a cat into diabetes, nor did she tell me she was unsuccessful at getting urine from one cat three times—only told me the blood/urinalysis results were mostly normal—and she neglected to tell me six months earlier that blood/urine tests i paid for showed my cat nearing a diabetic range. as the owner of a senior cat, i would have preferred hearing this and given good signs to watch for. doesn’t this make good sense? sometimes i think vets forget we’re laypeople, unless we’re right in an argument and they need some comeback. love vets but rolling my eyes at these things.
Comment by chris — May 16, 2009 @ 5:52 am
I don’t reject the impact of anecdotal evidence when it comes to practices that affect our pets’ health. I agree that “science” doesn’t always have all the answers.
However, it’s as much a mistake to be dismissive of scientific evidence as it is to be dismissive of people’s real-life anecdotal experiences. Both have their place, and on something as important as the feeding choices I make for my pets, I don’t want to be making decisions based on information that comes exclusively from either one camp or the other.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 16, 2009 @ 6:26 am
Afterthought… a 2006 poll was the basis for 2008 summit sessions and almost mid 2009, a Veterinary ECONOMICS magazine is asking the same thing?
Let’s try the economics of feeding animals with foods that contribute to illness, paying for treatments, going home having the same foods, same puffery ads getting people to buy “healthy” foods, back to the vet. It’s a cycle that won’t end until there’s changes in how the Vets look at nutrition. Not everyone can home cook or afford organic.. there has to be room for the average person to have foods that don’t contribute to urinary, renal, cancer problems.
We won’t talk about fluoride in bone meal, or how mechanically separating chicken puts more crushed bone with more fluoride in the pet foods or the question as to why the research was only on dogs, and not cats. And the vet questions are why EWG did the tests on dog food because the science was for dogs, not cats.
http://www.thenhf.com/fluoridation_46.htm and in 2001, Journal of Agriculture & Food Chemistry, Fein & Cerklewski & http://www.petsfortheenvironme.....d_testing)
Since Vets looked at fluoride in 1971, still asking about bone canders increasing in 2009, I’m asking why vets are not more proactive? Afterall,they have more access to the science than most pet parents
Maybe that would make cats feel better too?
If healthy animals go to the vet less, then please tell me the economic incentives for the vets to get involved in nutrition?
(off my soapbox) LOL
Comment by Offy — May 16, 2009 @ 6:28 am
Overall principle for vets with mixed-animal practices: Don’t think of a cat as a small dog! Especially when it comes to medications, cats are super-sensitive beings, and medicines that may help a dog can kill a cat (Metacam comes to mind.) Cats are also notoriously difficult to medicate as compared to dogs; offering meds compounded with flavorings that appeal to cats is a big plus.
Comment by catbird — May 16, 2009 @ 7:33 am
What works for me and my cats at the vet:
1. Letting my cats be examined in the bottom half of their carrier with the top off.
2. Doing SubQ fluids in the room with me.
3. Accepting and entertaining treatments from research done by me.
4. Removing tooth tartar manually instead of telling me the have to have a dental when it isn’t too bad.
5. Pulling bloodwork in the same room with my help.
6. Excellent nurses who listen to my instructions when doing tests.
Things that could be improved:
1. Knowledge and acceptance of different types of nutrition (raw, homecooked, canned, dry)
2. Couches in exam rooms if space allows (one vet I went to had these and my cat was much more relaxed — curled up on the couch)
3. Separate waiting areas (dogs & cats)
4. Kennel areas (before surgery) — dog FAR from cat area.
Comment by Bug — May 16, 2009 @ 7:36 am
Definitely listen more to pet parents ,don’t take the dogs or cats into the back for shots and blood draws, and some non petfood company nutrition awareness. The benchs worked much better for carriers than the chairs do.
Comment by Leslie K — May 16, 2009 @ 7:53 am
I saw this yesterday, but I wanted to compose my thoughts a bit more eloquently than my initial surprise and delight would allow. Thank you, Gina, for making this forum available to us. Thank you, Mr. Howard, for your interest and attempt to change the “norm”. I can tell by the current amount of responses that this is deeply appreciated by all of us.
As a cat owner, I have felt like a second-class citizen at nearly every vet I have ever seen. I am now a special needs adopter, and adopt only senior cats who are ill, with emphasis on diabetes. I am only able to do this because I have found a vet who listens to me, and thoroughly learns about my cats, without trying to disparage my level of experience and knowledge about the diseases I encounter with my adoptees. Here is my wishlist.
1. If you don’t like cats, don’t accept them as clients.
2. Do not handle my cat as if you are scared. Give me my cat and I will carry him or her. My cats are elder, frail and often have arthritis or neuropathy and should not be handled by an inexperienced vet tech, or one who hates cats. They rarely require scruffing, and if it’s necessary, I would prefer that I be the one trusted to restrain my cat.
3. Don’t you wonder why Feline Diabetes, Chronic Renal Failure, IBD, Hyper T, Asthma/allergies and Urinary crystals/inflammation and infections are so prevalent today? It’s time to stop accepting these literal epidemics by allowing the pet food companies to dictate your level of knowledge about feline nutrition. They did no scientific studies that were governed or overseen by any agency, they are unregulated, and free to claim what they wish, whether it is truth or not. Cats are not small dogs. They are obligate carnivores. This means their perfect diet is meat - certainly not kibble, and certainly not vegetation in any form.
4. I second the waiting room suggestions. Even my calm cats are not used to being around dogs and will respond with fright. Cats tend to elevate to escape, so being trapped in a cage on the floor can be truly traumatizing for them.
5. No more back room treatments! No, I don’t like to see you stabbing my cat with a 3” needle, but I can still talk, pet and coo soothingly to help my terrified cat while you’re using it on him or her.
6. We use the internet as a tool. We will, and do, look things up. It would be bad if we found out you were wrong, and it would be worse if you continued to look at us as if we were some sort of crazed pet owner when we fess up that we did it. We are not the cat owners of yesterday. Our cats are not barn cats, they aren’t “only to keep the mice down” - they are valued members of our families. Please do not disparage our attempts to maintain our pet’s health, because we will certainly not disparage you for not knowing every little arcane detail about our pet’s illness. I will gladly provide you links to where I saw information so that you may go see for yourself whether I am getting good information or bad. After I fall over from the shock of hearing you ask. :-)
Thank you again Gina and Mr. Howard!
Comment by Carolyn — May 16, 2009 @ 8:11 am
Maddie, I clicked on the link and, as Terrierman says, I saw lots of typing. No sources cited. No peer-reviewed journals listed. No footnotes. Nothing but unsupported opinion with a gloss of scientific jargon.
The author of Feeding Your Cat, Lisa Pierson, says she’s a vet. But didn’t I notice that one of the things the commenters above would like is for vets to get better educated on cat nutrition? Which suggests that her formal training in that area is possibly lacking. She doesn’t cite any qualifications that I could find to justify her firm opinions. In fact, I couldn’t find any information about her in her site to even prove that she is a vet at all.
The one link provided, with the word “internist”, and called “Cat Nutrition. org, states at the bottom of the page, “The content on this site is written by a lay person with no veterinary training.” And I should take that person’s content seriously…why? Yet, Cat Nutrition.org strongly pushes a one-size-fits-all approach to feeding one’s cat.
The same website’s author quotes from the AVMA and a vet. But what are the AVMA’s and Dr. Greco’s qualifications to expound on feline nutrition? Sadly, we are left unenlightened.
I “learned” nothing from Feeding Your Cat, since there was no scientifically proven information provided.
You, in turn, may believe what you wish, but that doesn’t make it knowledge.
Comment by Susan Fox — May 16, 2009 @ 9:01 am
Comment by Carolyn — May 16, 2009 @ 8:11 am
Don’t you wonder why Feline Diabetes, Chronic Renal Failure, IBD, Hyper T, Asthma/allergies and Urinary crystals/inflammation and infections are so prevalent today?
Well, after the Pet Food Recalls of 2007 we learned that the addition of melamine and/or cyanuric acid to pet food ingredients in order to fraudulently boost the apparent protein content of pet food ingredients not only had been going on since at least December of 2006, but has possibly BEEN going on for the past 10-20 years - no way to know for sure other than the existence of its casual acceptance in conversations with certain people involved in the production of agricultural animal feed where it is (legitimately) used to boost protein levels for ruminants such as cattle.
The idea of ALSO using it in foods intended for dogs and cats came along at some point without that fact being disclosed (and almost certainly by the Chinese who were increasing their world market share as “suppliers of everything” by leaps and bounds). We don’t know how long melamine and/or cyanuric acid have been getting sneaked into dog and cat foods. But once we found out was happening, the University of Ontario very nicely demonstrated that when you put these two compounds together into cat urine, the HUGE crystals that form almost instantly are more than capable of seriously compromising and/or shutting down a cat’s kidneys within days.
So if you are sneaking small amounts of melamine/cyanuric acid into foods, perhaps you are creating a generation of cats with Chronic Renal Failure, urinary crystals, infections, and all the other nasties that go along with that. This is a supposition difficult to investigate because the food which may have caused the problems has been long gone - one way or another.
What is NOT supposition and HAS been investigated is that when the pet food companies and the Chinese got greedy and started pumping more and more bargain-basement melamine into foods instead if “expensive” REAL sources of protein, we suddenly had cats dying in droves, their kidneys stuffed with the telltale wagon-wheel crystals identified by the University of Ontario at Guelph and proof-positive that these animals had ingested melamine and/or cyanuric acid.
What is ALSO not supposition is that even after the exposure brought on in the aftermath of the Pet Food Recalls of 2007, the Chinese practice of cheating protein costs by substituting melamine has not gone away. Witness the ensuing scandal of baby formula containing enough melamine to compromise the kidney health of Chinese babies - fatally in some cases.
So I guess I am not convinced that when it comes to things like kidney failure and urine crystals in cats that THE answer is to stop feeding kibble and start feeding wet. Because - as folks who were posting here in early 2007 know - some of the first cases of melamine contamination that were found were in “wet” foods.
A lot of us think that low-levels of melamine have been in many commercial pet diets for a long time without our knowledge. And a lot of us speculate that it could account for the uptick in chronic renal failure in cats that has been occurring for - oh - say - the past 10 years or so.
I - for one - am happy to see any scientific work underway to verify (or not!) this as well as other potential causes postulated by those who feel the culprit is in feeding dry.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 16, 2009 @ 10:48 am
Apropo to the topic at hand:
With all the great suggestions for waiting room and cat handling/treatment changes, I’ve gotta say that I feel really blessed that we have a house calls only vet. She comes twice a year, once to “do” the dog and once for the four cats.
We live 30 minutes north of her and use a local vet office where she once worked if there’s something she is not able to get up here to do or that she doesn’t have a place to do, like surgeries.
We schedule cat appointments for mid-morning and then make sure everyone is in the night before so we can close off the cat door.
I hold the cats during the exam and for shots as needed. The vet explains what she’s seeing as she does the exam. We’re partners in the care of the family critters.
She will only do euthanasia for clients who have convinced her that their motives are sound. She will not do it just because caring for the animal is an inconvenience to the human. On the other hand, when Kasha’s kidneys were giving out, she was losing weight and re-hydrating her didn’t help, the vet said that “we won’t let her live like this.” So Kasha was put to sleep in my arms in our living room. THAT is what I consider a “good death”.
I can call any time and leave a message and she generally gets back to me within 24 hours and is willing to tell me what needs doing (or not) over the phone. So, when the inside of the collie’s ear suddenly swelled up (bee sting, I think), I was able to treat it myself with her advice.
We’ve done one emergency clinic visit (see above), one neutering, one shattered canine extraction (a rescue cat who had been thrown against a wall), the kidney failure re-hydration and that’s been about it for vet office visits with seven different cats in over 15 years. So, we’ve obviously been lucky in the cat health dept., too.
Her opinion on food, expressed implicitly and only when asked, is that kibble is good for the teeth and wet food is desirable to balance the kibble, since cats can get addicted to it. She would prefer that we only feed one good quality brand because that decreases the variables if there is a problem that could be diet-related.
She does not pretend to be a nutritionist. She is careful and conservative and is now moving to a three year vaccination protocol. She does not believe in using her client’s pets as guinea pigs for the latest treatments.
It sounds like there’s an opportunity for some enterprising young vets since I’ll bet there’s a lot of people who would pay extra to not have to haul their cats to a vet’s office and back, with the stress involved for all parties.
Yes, we are sooo spoiled. I cringe when I read what so many of you have to put with. Clearly, change is needed.
Comment by Susan Fox — May 16, 2009 @ 11:09 am
To the other Pat. you are so defensive that I must believe you are a representative of a food company. I don’t have to be a vet to know what I am talking about, nor is the pet food industry made up of vets.
We can prove what we are saying, we just choose not to do so in the midst of a discussion about how to make veterinary trips less stressful for our cats. That would be called “off topic”.
If you would like to have a lovely conversation with people who happen to know what they are talking about, take a trip over to felinediabetes.com and check out the very active message board. Look for Think Tank and post your thoughts there.
In the meantime, let’s stick to the topic, shall we?
Comment by Carolyn — May 16, 2009 @ 3:01 pm
To the other Pat. you are so defensive that I must believe you are a representative of a food company. I don’t have to be a vet to know what I am talking about, nor is the pet food industry made up of vets.
You’re not familiar with this blog and its regular posters, for sure. And you are very confused.
I clicked on the link, too, and found a page heavy on dogmatic statements and emotive words, but no support for those statements. Dr. Pierson proudly claims her DVM, but offers nothing in the way of information about what education she has in veterinary nutrition. The page linked to says it’s written by a layperson without veterinary training. No mention at all is made of training in veterinary nutrition.
Now, for sure I agree that meat should be the primary ingredient in any cat food, that cats shouldn’t be fed corn, etc. But you’re not offering any support for the claim that no cat should ever be fed any dry food. That’s a sweeping and dogmatic statement, and you’re not supporting it, and the catinfo.org site makes me want to argue with statements I agree with, it’s so shallow and dishonest in making its case.
This is not the way to win hearts and minds.
We can prove what we are saying, we just choose not to do so in the midst of a discussion about how to make veterinary trips less stressful for our cats. That would be called “off topic”.
Um. Ya, sure. Now, what explains the failure of catinfo.org to make its case in a sensible and persuasive manner?
Comment by Lis — May 16, 2009 @ 3:59 pm
To the other Pat. you are so defensive that I must believe you are a representative of a food company.
Darn! My secret identity has been outed! Just call me Valerie Plame!
Seriously, though - what you’re seeing as “defensiveness” can better be explained by my long witnessing of the “food wars” waged among dog people - not only of things like “commercial v.s. raw”, but then even within the raw community, which KIND of raw. The accusatory statements and vitriol between various factions of raw feeders could put World War II to shame.
And the sad thing is the degree to which it alienates people. You can’t get a straight answer out of many of those folks. They often won’t support their position with much more than dogmatic statements - much like those I found on the felinediabetes site - and to modify an old dog trainer’s saying, “The only thing two raw feeders can agree on is that a third raw feeder is wrong”.
I sense a lot of this same dynamic in the “dry v.s. wet” discussions I’ve seen on what to feed cats, and it only serves to make me want to know more rather than be persuaded.
And although my experience also qualifies as anecdotal, I will anecdotally tell you that many years ago I had a cat who lived to be 20 years old, and she was fed kibble every day of her much beloved life. So if the kibble killed her, I’m afraid it took 20 years to do so . . . . . .
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 16, 2009 @ 4:40 pm
The Other Pat, I have always enjoyed your investigative, non-biased, comprehensive comments.
I have fed wet food as much as I could, but my relatively new cats have been raised by others on kibble and eat that rather than the wet human or feline food. I cannot force them what to eat. I was starting to worry, but after your discussion I do feel more comfortable now.
Besides, I the cats are so healthy so maybe I will just relax and do what I am doing.
Comment by Colorado Transplant — May 16, 2009 @ 6:54 pm
I’m with those who have mentioned the “back room”. I can appreciate the fact that there are times when it may be beneficial (or even necessary) to leave the room for a procedure… but the blanket back room policy is a no-go for me.
Two years ago, I took a cat in end-stage CRF to a local emergency hospital. She had never been a difficult patient, and was happily purring and attempting to lick the vet throughout the exam. Alas, when it came time to draw her blood, they insisted on doing it in the back room- where there were a pair of large, extremely vocal dogs.
This cat had been horribly mauled by a large dog while under her previous owner’s care, and was left permanently disfigured and utterly petrified of dogs. I informed the vet of this, (and warned her that Alex would behave very aggressively in the dogs’ presence), but she refused to attempt to obtain a sample in the exam room, citing “policy”. The vet was aware of the severity of Alex’s injuries, (as the cat was very visibly malformed), but was completely dismissive of the idea that being restrained in a room full of agitated dogs would frighten her. (I had clearly been written off as one of “those” owners.) In the end, she promised me that Alex “would not be anywhere near the dogs”, but it was readily apparent when they returned to the room that this hadn’t been the case.
We’ve faithfully used the other ER ever since.
Comment by 3FabulousFelines — May 16, 2009 @ 9:12 pm
I’m with Pat, Lis and Susan on the food issue.
If someone is going to make the claim that a particular diet ‘kills’ cats, is universally in/appropriate, or causes/cures a particular condition, I don’t want rigid, emotive rhetoric, I want evidence. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation, so correlation alone isn’t sufficient to convince me that food is ultimately the culprit or the answer. I am also wary of anyone who pushes a dogmatic, one-size-fits all approach. We’re dealing with individuals here. As far as catinfo, Lis sums up my opinion perfectly- “the catinfo.org site makes me want to argue with statements I agree with, it’s so shallow and dishonest in making its case”.
Don’t get me wrong… I’m not suggesting that an inappropriate diet doesn’t contribute to or hasten the development of diabetes (or other conditions) in some animals. I’m not suggesting that nutrition is irrelevant or unimportant, or disputing the fact that an obligate carnivore is likely going to fare better on a meat-based diet than a corn-based one. What I’m saying is, I’m not moved by sweeping generalizations, oversimplification, and unsupported finger-pointing.
Just my two cents.
Comment by 3FabulousFelines — May 16, 2009 @ 11:55 pm
I went to a vet but had to leave her because she would not give a liquid form of antibiotic—just pills. My husband and I could not deal with pills for this particular cat—we found a vet that had the common antibiotic medicine that comes in liquid form.
Comment by Colorado Transplant — May 17, 2009 @ 5:39 am
Comment by 3FabulousFelines — May 16, 2009 @ 11:55 pm
What I’m saying is, I’m not moved by sweeping generalizations, oversimplification, and unsupported finger-pointing.
AND, I’m not moved by the mere existence of a DVM behind someone’s name. I’m not saying that the information Dr. Lisa Pierson presents on her catinfo site is wrong. Nor am I saying it is right. What I am saying is that it is presented without any support (that I found) beyond “Because I said so, and I’m a vet”. And I’m sorry, but if a technical person wants to be out there presenting technical information, then they have even MORE of an obligation than a layperson to back that information up. Why should I believe that Dr. Pierson’s saying “Listen to me because I’m a doctor and I say don’t feed your cats dry food!” is any more compelling than the vet who tells his client “Listen to me because I’m a doctor and I say don’t feed your cats people food!” or whatever other opinion-based piece of advice that I and others on this board have heard from members of the veterinary profession?
I took a look around the felinediabetes discussion board to get a feel for the nature of the conversations on dry v.s. wet food and found this:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/.....00,1636995
They’ll listen to the “DVM” behind her name.
Yup. That’s the way to make a compelling fact-based case for your position, all right.
Carolyn chided me for going “off topic”. Well, I would argue that in a thread that asks “What would help make veterinary care better for your cat?”, the advice to give out feeding directives that may or may not be fully supported by the current state of knowledge (at least not without disclosing that fact to the client) should NOT be on the list.
On the other hand, being open to honest discussions with your client about ALL the feeding (and care) choices that are out there, and what might support or fail to support the choices your client makes is DEFINITELY something vets can do in order to be providing better service. I appreciate the lovely compliment I received from Colorado Transplant. It is particularly meaningful in light of who her daughter is, what she does for a living, and the particular manner in which she approaches the ethical obligations of her professional standing.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 17, 2009 @ 6:01 am
Oh - and Carolyn - since you may not be familiar with the reference I made to ColoradoTransplant’s daughter, here’s a link that may help:
http://www.petconnection.com/b.....tive-care/
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 17, 2009 @ 6:03 am
Other Pat- I just checked that link and see what you mean. Two of the issues in play here, IMHO, are that many people are extremely hazy on the concept of cause and effect (as for example, assuming that there is a connection between an animal’s health issue and what they are being fed) and an unexamined willingness to accept whatever an “expert” says as being true. But that could just be my old 1960’s “Question Authority” attitude coming out ;-)
Comment by Susan Fox — May 17, 2009 @ 6:23 am
Pat and Susan- I couldn’t agree more!
I’ve encountered so many people, both online and off, who are quick to suggest (in the absence of any history whatsoever) that my cat’s diabetes was caused by an “improper diet”. What these people don’t know is, my cat was exhibiting symptoms of diabetes when we acquired him. (Via trap, from a feral colony, at 2-3 years of age.) A few months before that, his mother had disappeared following a prolonged illness that looked suspiciously like untreated diabetes. This particular cat couldn’t have possibly been raised on a more “natural” diet. He was trim, active, young, and probably the last cat I ever would have pegged as a potential diabetic. Alas… surprise, ketoacidosis.
I think it’s pretty clear that T’s condition probably owes a lot more to genetics than carbs. But what if this very same cat had grown up indoors, on a primarily kibble-based diet? When he invariably developed diabetes at a young age, how many people would be quick to hold him up as yet another kibble casualty? There would have been no way of knowing that he would have still developed diabetes on a low-carb diet of chipmunks, sparrows, and bugs. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. Even knowing that kibble might not be the best maintenance diet for a diabetic cat or a cat prone to UTIs does not necessarily imply that kibble *causes* animals to develop diabetes or urinary issues.
When it comes to the feeding debate, I see a lot of absolutism bolstered by very little substantiation, and it’s frustrating. (And, frankly, absolutism in general makes me want to run for the hills.)
(And, as far as the DVM, one of the vets at our clinic of choice is an otherwise brilliant clinician, but if I followed his advice regarding the feeding of my tubby tabby (“feed kibble, canned will make him fat”), we’d be trying to take off twenty pounds instead of just two! Said cat has a horrible metabolism and can’t handle kibble at all- it’s what made him chunky in the first place. I respect the vet’s opinion on everything else, but “Catkins” is working, and we’re sticking with it.. much to the chagrin of said cat.)
Apologies for the novel.. the diabetes thing is kind of a personal pet peeve of mine.
Comment by 3FabulousFelines — May 17, 2009 @ 12:49 pm
My vet has a separate waiting area for cats but does not enforce it so there are often dogs in it. I don’t know why the dogs are there — maybe they want to avoid confrontations with other dogs or maybe there is just more room in the cat area but it is wrong. The cat area is for cats and this needs to be enforced.
Vets also need to be more gentle with scaredy cats.
Finally my cats are very beautiful. (In fact the vet techs always come to visit my tortie when she has an appt because she is such a cutie.) If the vet doesn’t comment on this, then I have to believe he/she is not very bright.
Someone mentionned sympathy cards. This has become so standard that I look upon it as almost manipulative. The head of the vet practice sends one stating that a contribution was made in the cat’s name to an animal charity. It was so obviously a stock xeroxed response that we trashed it. Our actual vet sent one where he’d written a couple of words himself which we treasured. I also like it if they refer you to grief groups.
Comment by Sheila — May 18, 2009 @ 8:30 am
I think vets can do the folowing to improve their practices for cats;
stop declawing
offer sound nutritional advise with an extended degree in nutrition. Science diet, Euk, etc are not good healthy foods. PLease learn this and reconise it for the benefit of the cats.
Understand vaccination revisions and the risks associated with many vacines and over vaccinating.
Comment by Connie — May 18, 2009 @ 9:11 am
Understand, work with and assit in TNR.
Comment by Connie — May 18, 2009 @ 9:11 am
To help your vets out, here is a vet who has done the work http://www.catinfo.org/ .
Excelent site. Love it. Me and my vet follow it and my once fat cat who couldn;’t groom herself now can. as well as jump on all kinds of stuff including (oh joy) shelves. I always thought she was just a good cat, nope she was too fat to get into these places! LOL
Comment by Connie — May 18, 2009 @ 9:21 am
Connie, I believe that the website you are referring to has been pretty thoroughly taken apart on another part of this comment thread. How do you know that she is a vet? ‘Cause she says so is not sufficient. There’s no proof on the site other than DVM after her name.
Scroll up to comments 40, 44, 48 and 50.
Comment by Susan Fox — May 18, 2009 @ 11:53 am
And even if she is a vet, it appears that much of what she is setting forth is based on anecdotal experience rather than actual peer-reviewed scientific studies. Which does not necessarily make her advice bad advice or wrong advice - but definitely calls into question the idea that it’s the only right advice.
In other words, her ideas and ways of doing things might make for a healthy cat. But there are almost certainly many other ideas and ways of doing things that can ALSO make for a healthy cat.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 18, 2009 @ 12:05 pm
… I don’t know why the dogs are there — maybe they want to avoid confrontations with other dogs ….
Good point.
Our current vet has separate waiting rooms for dogs and cats, all to the good, but in order to fit them both in they’re also both very small. Which can be iffy over on the dog side, since there’s not much room for big, active, or touchy dogs.
Our vet does her best to keep it civil and whisk potential trouble-makers into exam rooms, but even so, there’ve been a couple of times when our little weiner dog was made so uncomfortable we waited outside.
So I can see the temptation here even if I’d not succumb, and I think it’s something clinics need to think about and plan for.
Comment by Eucritta — May 18, 2009 @ 12:12 pm
Well susan, the fact of the matter is pretty common sence. Cat nutrition isn’t trickey and processed foods are bad for them just like they are bad for humans. So I prefer to feed mine raw fresh meat. that said due to circumstances beyond my control at the moment I can’t so I feed an all canned diet. I think it’s funny how people get so mind washed into thinking a processed grain based food is good for a cat. If it was so good then why are cats plaugued by diabities, kidney, urinary, heart disease and obesity. Im am just thnakful my vet and I can relize proper nutrtiion and give them the best fromt he inside out.
Comment by connie — May 19, 2009 @ 5:35 am
Connie, I think you’re new to this site, and so you haven’t yet picked up on the fact that folks here are ALL about the idea that the foods you give your pet should HELP them rather than HURT them. This site was at the forefront of tracking pet illness and deaths during the Pet Food Recalls of 2007, and some of the posters here were among the first to identify the fact that it was known that melamine in pet food gluten ingredients was the culprit, and that that fact was being kept from us by both industry and our government. We’ve become a pretty skeptical bunch when it comes to being told “the right way” - and with good reason.
A lot of us have become extremely suspicious of processed foods in any form - whether for us or for our pets. The degree to which we can turn those suspicions to changes in the way we feed ourselves and/or our pets will vary from individual to individual - but we are well aware that the state of food safety in this country - for pets and for people - is sorely in need of reform.
That being said, please read through the comments in this thread. You’ll find that readers and posters here are well aware that the uptick of health problems in our pets is cause for concern. But that there may be (and probably are) a variety of possible causes for this change - even a variety of possible food-related causes. But precious few of these possible causes have been fully investigated. And a lot of the “cures” folks are supporting are based on anecdotal experience rather than scientific facts.
Bottom line - if YOU want to avoid feeding your cats kibble, that’s great, and altogether your choice. But if you’re going to tell OTHER people that they’re putting their cat’s health or lives in danger by feeding kibble, then you’d better be able to provide some pretty substantive proof for that position. If that proof is lacking, then don’t be surprised when everyone doesn’t go along with your ideas. Because other people may have other ideas about what they think is going on, and in the absence of proof, there is no position that has any more validity than any other.
I hope this makes sense to you. It’s not a REJECTION of your position, Rather, it’s a request for you to recognize that there are other positions out there as well, and that others have a right to them in the absence of any conclusive proof of “the one right way”.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 19, 2009 @ 6:32 am
Regarding the dry vs canned food debate and diabetes:
Our cat Sam had diabetes for 11 years. We gave him insulin twice a day till we had to say good-bye to that sweet boy when he was 17. He ate the vet prescribed (and sold only by vets) canned and dry food and was well regulated with his diabetes. His love Foxy would only eat what he ate, specifically his dry food. She’s 10 years old now and in Jan of this year started to eat Innova EVO dry food as well. I tried many times to give her canned food and talked to several vets about her diet. They all insisted the prescription dry food for the diabetic cat Sam was fine for her as well.
In March Foxy was diagnosed with diabetes after 10 years of eating food for a diabetic cat! We had lots of problems regulating her. I’m home testing her blood sugar and documented the wild swings of her blood sugar — just couldn’t find an insulin dosage that would work. The vet suggested we try a different insulin, but we continued with lantus. And, fyi, she doesn’t fit the profile of a diabetic cat — very petite at 7.5 pounds.
I did major research online and read the comments about dry food causing or contributing to the problem. At this point she was eating EVO only but I was offering a variety of canned foods that were high protein, grain free, low carb. She would pick at those and walk away.
I finally tried some Fancy Feast varieties (there are several which are high protein, wheat free, and low carb)and she liked one (tender liver and chicken feast). On March 28 she ate canned food only. On March 30 her blood glucose readings dropped 150 to 200 points throughout the day and the excessive thirst stopped.
I started using the tight regulation protocol described at http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com and in a matter of days her blood glucose was within the normal range most of the day. When she was first diagnosed and still eating dry food, her numbers were consistently at least in the 300-400 range.
Her blood was tested two weeks ago; her liver numbers are back to normal and she’s running and playing as before.
Also, our other kitty, a two year old male, is eating the Fancy Feast food. No dry food in the house. Both cats are drinking much less water and I’m not exaggerating that there’s about 1/3 as much urine in the litter box. The 2 year old (Zia) was drinking so much that I had blood work and urinalysis on him early this year. He was dehydrated (eating EVO at that time).
Interesting that both vets I saw when Foxy was diagnosed said to take her immediately off dry food. Neither of these vets own the vet practices but dry food is sold at their offices. Sadly my experience has been that more often than not, some vets have a conflict of interest in taking care of pets’ diseases and prevention of disease vs. their bottom line.
Comment by Animal Shelter Tips — May 19, 2009 @ 7:06 am
AST … appreciate the comment, but: Do you have a name besides the one you’re using to promote your Web site? First name’s fine.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 19, 2009 @ 7:11 am
Cat eats Food A. Cat has Health Problem B. Owner changes cat to Food C. Health Problem B improves or vanishes.
Now…was it because cat IS eating Food C? Or because cat ISN’T eating Food A?
And how does one find out which it is? Well, “science” has been known to provide methods by which relevant data can be found. These are called “facts”.
Connie said:
“Cat nutrition isn’t trickey and processed foods are bad for them just like they are bad for humans.”
Cite sources, please. “Bad” in what way?
Is it the processing itself, the ingredients or a combination of the two? See above paragraph. “Everybody knows…” is not a provable fact.
Final thought (for the moment): Common sense isn’t.
Comment by Susan Fox — May 19, 2009 @ 7:13 am
I actually look at it all from a higher level. There’s not a lot of “proof” in the commercial v. home prepared argument. (And yes, there IS an issue about funding — industry isn’t going to fund research into something that won’t help them.)
But … I see it as part of my larger efforts (not always successful, but getting more so all the time) to eat and feed to my pets regional, sustainable and humanely raised (in the case of animals) food.
Knowing where my and my pets’ food comes from also allows me to take back control — I know it’s not coming from factory farms, or from hideously filthy and dishonest suppliers in, say, China.
We KNOW that industrial agriculture is environmentally devastating, contributes to climate change and maintains our addiction to fossil fuel. Add in industrial animal agriculture, and you’re talking cruelty. I don’t want any part of that, and so I’m increasingly seeking out local options.
That means … most meals prepared in the kitchen I formerly used not at all, from ingredients sourced from known suppliers.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 19, 2009 @ 7:58 am
Connie- I would also like to see more interest in TNR from the veterinary community. There are still vets in our area who believe that TNR is a cruel, ineffective practice and advocate blanket euthanasia policies in the name of kindness.
I’d also like to see vets become more knowledgeable about FIV. My cats are all products of a feral colony, and one of the three is FIV+. Things have improved immensely in our area in recent years, but there still seems to be a great deal of confusion and misinformation out there regarding things like prognosis and ease of transmissibility… as well as a tendency to automatically attribute any problems a positive cat might be experiencing to the virus. (Is he really losing weight and engaging in urinary indiscretions because of the FIV, or has he developed diabetes? Was her uveitis really caused by the FIV, or is she also positive for Bartonella?) Such assumptions pose a great (and potentially dangerous) disservice to these cats.
Fortunately, we’ve been blessed with a phenomenal clinic where the staff is very knowledgeable and cat-savvy. The only real gripe I have is the waiting area. It’s quite small for such a busy practice, and doesn’t allow for much of an escape if there happens to be an unruly dog in the vicinity. My cats are pretty laid back when it comes to dogs, so it’s not much of an issue for us… but I can see how it might be a deal-breaker for somebody else.
Comment by 3FabulousFelines — May 19, 2009 @ 2:14 pm
More on dry vs canned:
Please refer to my comment 63 and a response by Susan Fox in comment 65. Other comments similar to Susan’s are found throughout this thread on canned vs dry food.
At the risk of making statements that aren’t viewed as “fact” or “science” —-
Envision your cat having out of control diabetes that you can’t regulate even though you’ve followed your vet’s directions.
Do you sit on your hands waiting for the veterinary gods to publish the long awaited scientific study to justify any further action? Do you continue to work with a vet who went to school 30 years ago and only believes the science he learned then and insists that his way is the only way? Or do you research for yourself, talk to vets who are more enlightened and open to new ways of doing things, and actually find other cat owners who have improved their kitties’ situations?
I don’t understand such extreme pushback and attempts to squash and dismiss the comments and experiences concerning canned food by some on this blog who have probably not experienced the total frustration and concern of dealing with diabetic cats. Of course it would be great to have a definitive “here’s precisely what to do to fix the problem.” But at this time the data concerning this matter is not current and is often entwined with the financial motives of those publishing the data. That includes vets AND pet food companies.
In speaking with some relatively new vets (graduated 2001 and later) I’ve been told that feline diabetes was presented at vet school in much the same way it’s been presented for many years. We’ve found there’s a vast difference from one vet to the next in terms of knowledge and applying one patients’ experience to the next situation, ie, there are a lot of incompetent “scientists” out there.
Our diabetic cat Sam (had diabetes 11 years) went through numerous treatments and procedures that were totally botched since many vets don’t know how diabetes interacts with drugs, etc. Unfortunately, as in many professions, some of the trained people you’d like to depend on for the answers are of little help.
For my husband and me, we’ve learned that common sense and being proactive are very important to ensuring the best care for our pets and for ourselves. Our sweet Foxy is totally regulated and back to her playful self. This improvement began only after the dry food was removed from her diet. There are a couple of the Fancy Feast foods that she will eat and we get the same blood sugar readings (prefers tender liver and chicken feast but will eat another one of the “chicken feasts”).
In addition, two months ago she had liver damage and keotones in her urine. These problems are gone. What we’re doing is working!
I’m writing this only to pass along to other diabetic cat owners what has worked very well for us. Extensive research I’ve done indicates that this approach is working for many other diabetic cat owners as well.
If trying something so simple as changing to canned food helps regulate your cat and potentially helps him go into remission, do you really care whether or not a scientific paper or journal has endorsed this?
PS. For anyone with a diabetic cat who’s reading this: if you try switching to canned food, defintely back off your insulin dosage since the blood sugar may quickly drop and you don’t want to overdose. Work with your vet on this. He/she may even suggest that you not give insulin at all for a day or so. My experience has been to change only one thing at a time and watch carefully for any changes. I try to make changes only when I’m going to be at home all day and have a chance to observe.
Comment by catlover — May 19, 2009 @ 5:05 pm
Catlover—you’ve read this comment thread, but you clearly haven’t read much else on this blog. That couldn’t be more obvious.
The pushback isn’t against canned food. The pushback is against the idea that canned food, or raw, is The One True Way, and you’re killing your cat if you do anything else. Sweeping, dogmatic statements like that do require some objective scientific support.
“This is what worked for my cat in these circumstances” though, don’t require anything other than your personal experience as support, and can be a useful contribution to the discussion.
Take a look at 3FabulousFelines’ comment #53, and consider the point she made: if that same cat had grown up as an indoor cat, eating dry food, he would look like evidence for your theory. In reality, he grew up outside, eating the most natural diet possible for a cat, and still developed diabetes at a young age.
I don’t believe for one minute that corn is an appropriate food for cats. However, no one commenting here with sweeping statements about one feeding method or another being “right” and the others constitute “killing your cat” has offered any real evidence to support that. Yes, cats eat a lot of dry food, and yes, cats have a lot of diabetes and a lot of kidney and liver failure.
We also know that pet food companies have been cheating for years, using “wheat gluten” sources so cheap they should have asked questions about what they were getting, and their suppliers were cheating, using melamine to boost the apparent levels of protein. Two years ago, they got very greedy and tipped things over to levels that caused people to notice.
We don’t know that they’ve been doing the same thing on a more modest scale for decades—but we don’t know they haven’t, either. And nothing has been done to make our pets’ food (or our own!) safe from this kind of poisoning.
I don’t have proof, by any means, but I strongly suspect that the problems we have with our cats’ health are not “dry food” or “processed food”, but poisoned food, poisoned not by people whose goal is to kill them, but rather simply to make that fast buck, with no concern about the consequences.
Fresh, whole foods? Absolutely the way to go if you can manage it. But dry food, which actually contains only what it is supposed to and not contaminants like melamine, “killing your cat” ? Sorry, the evidence is not there.
Comment by Lis — May 20, 2009 @ 4:57 am
In addition, there is a significant difference in the discussion of animals that have a medical condition v.s. a discussion of animals that are healthy. As I mentioned previously, I had a cat live to the age of 20 on kibble. At age 17, she began exhibiting the first slightest signs of diminished kidney function, so I worked with my vet and we put her on prednisolone and also changed her to a kidney diet - also kibble. She lived 3 more years, and I consider every additional day I had with her a blessing.
I might have made different choices these days, but there’s no way the kibble killed her. Or - as I said earlier - if it did, it took 20 years to do so.
Fast forward to my current almost 14 year old dog - on kibble up until the 2007 recalls, then switched to a homemade diet from a veterinary nutritionist’s website called “BalanceIt”. Last year, when he was 12, he also began exhibiting some early signs of diminished kidney function. This was probably already underway when we switched him to homemade, and I think it’s perfectly logical to attribute this kind of organ degeneration to nothing more insidious than a dog who is in his senior years.
Once again my vet recommended a low-protein prescription diet but - GASP! - I opted to look into something else! I went to a website recommended by Christie Keith here at PetConnection ( http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html#protein ) and learned that there are folks who think that lowering protein for a dog in early stage kidney failure might do more harm than good. That it was far more important to make sure that the protein fed was of a high quality and therefore easier for the kidneys to handle. And that it was also important to decrease the amount of phosphorus in the diet because that lightens the load on the kidneys.
The site also discusses the benefits of feeding - GASP! again - RAW meat to a dog with diminished kidney function. I don’t recall that there was exhaustive scientific support provided for this assertion, however, it sounded good to me - and certainly not dangerous in any way - so I decided to give it a shot. Yup - I decided to adopt a feeding regimen for my dog without checking to see if there was all sorts of science behind it! (Are we out of GASP!s yet?)
My vet would have preferred that I go along with his recommendations, but he’s a good guy and knows I think carefully about the choices I make for my pets and so he just said “Let’s re-check in six months and see how he looks”.
And guess what? My guy’s kidney values are coming back down! They’re not perfect, but like I said, he’s almost 14. What do you expect?
Second re-check a couple of weeks ago and values look stable. My vet is happy, I”m happy, and my dog is lovin’ his new raw diet!
So - do I tell everyone I know to quit feeding kibble and hop on the raw bandwagon or else their dogs will develop kidney disease? Heck no! If the dog is healthy and doing well, then the owner is doing a good job and it’s not my place to tell them otherwise.
But if someone’s pet has been diagnosed with early-stage renal disease and they post - worried and looking for ideas - then you bet I share my experience. And I share the address to the DogAware site, and that way they can go read about it and think about it and make their own decision based on the information at hand.
And that’s all we’re really after here. We want vets to be willing to discuss safe alternatives with us if it’s something we’re interested in trying, even if it might not have been the vet’s primary recommendation. And we want pet owners who share and seek information to be clear on the differences between “This is what worked for me” v.s. “This is what the science says”.
It’s really not that complicated.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 20, 2009 @ 6:27 am
I don’t have proof, by any means, but I strongly suspect that the problems we have with our cats’ health are not “dry food” or “processed food”, but poisoned food, poisoned not by people whose goal is to kill them, but rather simply to make that fast buck, with no concern about the consequences.
Comment by Lis — May 20, 2009
I have wondered the same thing.
I would wonder if the diabetes uptick in cats roughly coincided with the time when pet food companies started importing ingredients from countries with non-existent quality control. That, coupled with the trends toward obesity caused by people who overfeed/underexercise indoor cats.
I dunno … just a thought. And roughly about as crazy as the idea that greedy bastards would use melamine to game the protein readings, killing thousands of pets.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 20, 2009 @ 6:32 am
I think Lis is on to something. I believe I read somewhere (how’s that for citing sources ;-)), that the life span of dogs and cats has increased greatly since WWII, from 5-7 years or so in the case of dogs, to 20+ for the small breeds. Cats approaching 20 isn’t that unusual, either.
Doesn’t this also coincide with the general switchover from feeding table scraps or whatever to commercial dry and canned food?
So one could easily jump to the conclusion that commercial food is REALLY GOOD for pets. (Of course we also know that vet care has improved in that time, too.)
But in the past few years, there seem to be increasing problems with that food. Why?
I suspect that the move to the factory farming of animals and the importation of ingredients of dubious quality could be factors.
I want to second Lis’s comment about the difference between “it worked for me” vs. it’s The Answer for Everyone. That’s a really important distinction and is really the core of the objections a lot of us on this thread have to some of the other comments.
Comment by Susan Fox — May 20, 2009 @ 7:01 am
I came across this blog because one of my cats just had a bout with a bacterial UTI which then formed crystals and he became blocked. I will say that I will do just about anything to keep him from experiencing that pain again. Just the look in his eyes said it all and I felt incredibly guilty. This has all happened over the course of about 4 weeks. He has been prescribed Royal Canin SO dry food, but doesn’t like it. He normally eats wet food, but doesn’t like the wet food either. He will eat dry food, but he likes his wet food dinner. I feed mostly Natural Balance and Wellness. He was a stray and we started feeding him a few years ago and have built up the trust over time. We did find out recently that some other neighbors will occasionally feed him as well. I personally don’t think his UTI was the cause of anything food related.
I am not sure exactly where I stand on the topic, but what I gather from reading most of the comments is that Vets need to give options when it comes to diet. Not just feed this special formula that you can only buy from me for the rest of your cat’s life or s/he will suffer the consequences. I think just being knowledgeable about options says a lot and for me that is all I am asking. Essentially that feeding dry food is not the end all be all of cat nutrition either. Everyone’s situation is different and I would rather a cat be eating Wal-Mart brand cat food than living out on the streets. But I want to give the my cats the best I can and I should be educated by my vet
I do find this interesting though - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.....enger,_Jr.
Comment by crazycat05 — May 26, 2009 @ 8:17 am
I totally agree with crzycat05 about how we should question the vet about just using the prescribed food.
Besides the expense and extra visits to the office to pick up the food, it would be wise to see what ingredients in the foods are making the cat sick and select the foods ourselves by avoiding those said ingredients.
Comment by Colorado Transplant — May 26, 2009 @ 9:31 am
I agree with a many of the above comments, and my two issues were commented on several times.
1. I don’t like that vets and techs take my cats to the back where I can’t watch what they are doing. I wouldn’t leave my child alone with a doctor, and I don’t feel comfortable leaving my fur-babies either. I understand that animals react to their guardians’ stress levels, but if I can’t stay under control, you’re doing something wrong.
2. Feline nutrition expertise needs to be more prevalent
Comment by Katie S. — September 30, 2009 @ 9:57 am