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‘Marley and Me’: Don’t try this at home
By Gina Spadafori
December 26, 2008
I have never admitted this to anyone but a few friends, but I did not like “Marley & Me.” I feel kinda bad about that, since author John Grogan is by all accounts a stand-up guy, a good writer and a long-time friend of pet expert and Pet Connection pal Arden Moore.
But the book? I found it too irritating for words, and gave up on the reading halfway through. I found myself wanting to grab the man by the lapels and beg him to get competent help from a good trainer or behaviorist. There was nothing wrong with Marley that some consistent, well-informed environmental changes, training and exercise couldn’t have fixed. “Bad” dogs just aren’t funny to me.
And now, of course, Marley’s a movie. Thanks, but I’ll pass.
Of course, I’m not the only person with a negative reaction to the whole Marley thing. Most everyone I know who has any kind of expertise in training or behavior also found the book hard to stomach. And now, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior has gone so far as to issue a curmudgeonly warning label for the movie:
“Marley and Me,” a film based on John Grogan’s life with his loveable but unruly Labrador Retriever, is a wonderful example of the depth of the human-animal bond. However, much of Marley’s “bad” behavior was unknowingly created by his well meaning but poorly prepared owners and some of it was an anxiety disorder called storm phobia.
The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) makes the following recommendations.
1) Puppies require a great deal of time, attention, and training. Prospective owners should be well educated and prepared to begin teaching good manners from the minute they get the puppy. Waiting until the puppy is so large that he is uncontrollable will make the process much more difficult.2) Owners should enroll puppies in puppy classes as soon as possible. This is important for the owner’s education and for socialization of the puppy. This should be arranged before the puppy comes home.
3) Unruly behaviors such as jumping, pulling on the leash, and chewing household items can be prevented in the adult dog by teaching and rewarding mannerly and appropriate behavior in growing puppies.
4) At no point was “Marley” trying to be the “alpha male of the pack,” as claimed by the film’s dog trainer. Training does not require “dominance” and harsh corrections. Being a good leader by training and reinforcing desired behavior using positive reinforcement is the safest and most effective way to train puppies. For example, kneeing Marley in the chest to stop jumping up was potentially dangerous, completely ineffective, and unnecessary. Simply teaching him from puppyhood to sit for petting would have eliminated that problem.
5) Many dogs suffer from behavior problems that are unrelated to traditional training. For example, destruction and vocalization during storms often occurs because of the well-recognized condition of storm phobia. This condition is very treatable by veterinarians with a special interest or certification in animal behavior. “Most veterinarians and veterinary behaviorists see this problem very commonly. Treatment at an early age can alleviate stress experienced by the family and improves the quality of life for the dog itself,” said Dr. John Ciribassi, Immediate Past President of AVSAB and owner of the Chicagoland Veterinary Behavior Consultants.
6) Viewers should resist the temptation to adopt a puppy or dog based on a movie. What is on the screen is entertainment, not reality—even if it based on a true story. Shelters were filled with Dalmatians purchased after people saw the Disney film “101 Dalmatians” several years ago. Once the adorable little puppies grew up into rambunctious and destructive young adults, many owners simply dumped them.
More here. And there’ll be lots more from other groups, I predict.
Look, I live with retrievers. They’re a handful of dog and then some. My brother likes to joke that he has never seen one of mine “grow up” until the age of 10, when they become sensible, easy-going and quiet. Actually, most Labs and goldens seem to hit a “sweet spot” at 5, especially if you’ve put a little effort into the choosing and raising.
Honestly, if you’re looking to get one, check out an older dog from a rescue or shelter — over five is ideal, and a lot of people dismiss these great dogs as “too old” to adopt. If you get a retriever puppy or young adult retriever, remember that exercise — every day, and lots of it — is key to coping. A tired retriever is a good retriever. (True of all dogs, but I think especially of dogs with high need to be working, such as sporting and herding dogs and their mixes.) Training is fun with these guys. They’re way smart, and they love to learn and to work.
If you liked “Marley” and you like the movie, I’m glad for you. Hey, we all need a few laughs, right? Just don’t follow Grogan’s example … if you have a “bad” dog, get some help. You’ll both be happier, I promise.
Update:The movie sucks.
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I’m glad you confessed. I feel the same way. I spent an almost an 8 year period of my life, finding out of control labs and retrievers, placing them with potentional K9 officers and training dog and officer to find dope. Made a lot of people happy, especially the frustrated owners.
The last thing I want to do, is waste almost 2 hours of my life watching clueless dog owners. I can do that anytime I want, just go to a local park or worse yet dog park.
Comment by Kathleen Weaver — December 26, 2008 @ 10:44 am
The last thing I want to do, is waste almost 2 hours of my life watching clueless dog owners. I can do that anytime I want, just go to a local park or worse yet dog park.
Comment by Kathleen Weaver — December 26, 2008
As Christie always says, give us some warning before we laugh so hard we snort coffee out our noses.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — December 26, 2008 @ 10:49 am
I hated the book because he killed the dog by boarding it when they went to Disney World.
Comment by nancy freedman-smith — December 26, 2008 @ 10:51 am
oh and the APDT issued a training statement last week.
Comment by nancy freedman-smith — December 26, 2008 @ 10:53 am
Thank you. I couldn’t read the book either. Marley wasn’t “bad”, but his owner sure did a lot of things wrong! Maybe it would have been a better story if it were framed from the dog’s POV where the person was the true “problem”. And even better if the person finally learned the errors of their ways; was able to look back at all the stupid dog-unfriendly stuff they did and realize how wrong it all was. Anyone that’s worked with dogs for over 20-25 yrs. did a lot of the same stupid things he did (yes, I kneed jumping dogs myself in the name of “training” back then). There are much more humane, effective, research-based ways to teach behaviors to pet dogs – methods that have been available to pretty much everyone in the US for well over a decade. Wouldn’t it be amazing if this could be celebrated in a Hollywood film? It could be incredibly enlightening and revealing for the general public if seen from the dog’s POV.
Comment by kasie — December 26, 2008 @ 12:07 pm
John Grogan was on an episode of Dog Whisper. He has another Lab he couldn’t control. I guess he never leaned from Marley.
I have not read the book and will not see the movie. I really don’t need to see a movie about a disobedient lab. I have better things to spend my money on and better things to do with my time.
I got my first dog when I was 13 (for my b-day). I am not 19. I knew more about dogs that I assume these people did. It doesn’t take much to pick up a book on dogs. Apparently writing a book is easier for some people.
Comment by Kate M — December 26, 2008 @ 12:44 pm
Apparently writing a book is easier for some people.
Comment by Kate M — December 26, 2008
I can assure you more than a dozen times over that it is not. :)
Comment by Gina Spadafori — December 26, 2008 @ 12:48 pm
Have I told you lately that I love you?
I couldn’t finish the book either and I’m endlessly frustrated by owners like Marley’s. There are times it’s difficult to maintain my composure when someone blithely admits to creating problem behavior through either neglect or indulgence — then expects me to wave a magic wand and make it all go away in 2 hours or less.
[grrrrrrrr]
Comment by Janeen — December 26, 2008 @ 1:31 pm
I think Jon Katz created a whole new and awful category in animal ‘literature’: the Clueless Owner genre. “Marley and Me” is just more of the same. As has been pointed out by Kathleen and Kate, you can see the movie for free by going to your local dog park.
Comment by Anne T — December 26, 2008 @ 1:42 pm
“bad dogs just are not funny”
MEGA DITTO!
That should be plastered on every dog book ever written..
Comment by EmilyS — December 26, 2008 @ 2:49 pm
Ill-mannered children aren’t, either. The owners of the dogs and parents of the children too often seem to think they are adorable, though, doing a great disservice to their wards.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — December 26, 2008 @ 3:14 pm
Unfortunately, the average pet owner is not willing to invest time or money training their pet. That is why statistically 70 percent of people who either buy or adopt a pet keep it less than two years.
Comment by Mary — December 26, 2008 @ 3:57 pm
I’m with Kate. I saw that Dog Whisperer episode too. First I’d heard of Marley. They only called Millan in after the second dog (a field bred lab) killed a pet chicken or two. Honestly, I could have tied Grogan and his wife to a tree. Bad human. No biscuit.
Agree with Emily- Bad dogs aren’t funny. Not when you work in rescue or at a shelter where “bad” dogs show up all the time.
Won’t read the book. Won’t see the movie. The trailer p——s me off.
Comment by Susan Fox — December 26, 2008 @ 4:07 pm
I think people loved the book because it makes them feel less guilty about their own shortcomings with their pets (if someone makes unruly pets or storm phobias seem funny, it becomes a character trait rather than a problem to be dealt with). Sad sad sad.
Comment by Megan — December 26, 2008 @ 5:21 pm
I have an acquaintance that read this book, watched a few episodes of the Dog Whisperer, and then decided she knows everything about dogs and thus doesn’t have to listen to what anyone says about her pack of ill-behaved animals. Any conversation we have will revolve around the troubles she is having with her dogs and how, sigh, it’s all right because that happened in Marley and Me.
Never read it, but I hate that book.
Comment by EMoon — December 26, 2008 @ 5:28 pm
I can so believe that losing a chicken drove Grogan to The Dog Whisperer — those chickens give him his “street cred” as an “individualist.” You wouldn’t believe how many columns in both Organic Gardening Magazine and the Philadelphia Inquirer we all had to suffer through about his chickens. It amazes me that he really can string words together but there’s absolutely no brain behind them generating any type of thought.
As I mentioned on another blog, Philadelphia Inquirer readers begged the editors to get rid of his column — for years, he couldn’t figure out what his “hook” was and insight, a necessity for column writers, was totally beyond him. Considering what I’ve heard about his book, it appears that it still is.
I refused to read the book, based on my horrible experiences with the author, but when one of my Bible Study compatriots, with Pepper laying quietly right beside her, started gushing about how Marley was “adorable” and “misunderstood”, I totally lost it. Here I was with a young Border Collie/probably Shiba Inu (both high-energy breeds!) from rescue that, because I put in the training time from the beginning, I could take anywhere, including weekly Bible Study, and she was as quiet and welcome as any of the human participants. *THIS DIDN’T HAPPEN BY LUCK!!!!*
I can’t bear empty-headedness.
Comment by Dorene — December 26, 2008 @ 6:01 pm
EMoon wrote: ” have an acquaintance that read this book, watched a few episodes of the Dog Whisperer, and then decided she knows everything about dogs…”
I can top that. I know a woman who read Cesar Millan’s book, watched his videos — then put out her shingle as a “Pro-fesshunal Dawg Trainer.”
Instant Trainer - just add hubris!
Comment by Janeen — December 26, 2008 @ 6:12 pm
Grogan’s book joins A Good Dog in the annals of “books I read (some or most of) while sitting in B&N waiting for something or other because I sure ain’t buying them.”
Oh. Well.
At least Grogan didn’t convenience-kill his dog.
But he did seem to have plenty of blame for everyone except John Grogan for his dog’s “misbehavior.”
I got to the part about getting kicked out of obedience class by the unnamed instructor “because the dog was so bad,” and thought, “Not a chance pal. She kicked your butt out of class for refusing to follow instructions, and you spun it as the dog’s problem.”
The “Aren’t I an adorably inept pet owner?” genre is not one that needs to thrive.
I shall not view the movie.
Pity. I like Owen Wilson. He should stick to playing opposite Jackie Chan.
Comment by H. Houlahan — December 26, 2008 @ 8:26 pm
hmmm, I saw the commercial and was hoping the movie would discourage people from spontaneous puppy buying {grin} Obviously I haven’t read the book! I did see the DW episode and was familiar with the gist of the book, so I was a bit surprised to see him with the DW. Didn’t make it through the episode . . .
I didn’t realize Marley was also storm phobic. Clueless dog owners are bad enough, clueless dog owners dealing with a storm phobic dog is prob way beyond my tolerance level. {my dog is an almost recovered storm phobic dog}
Comment by straybaby — December 26, 2008 @ 9:26 pm
Well, I just read that his new puppy Woodson - one of the “actors” from the movie, given to him as a gift - is SEVERELY dysplastic already. Poor puppy! Breeder offered to “exchange” for another puppy, but they’re keeping Woodson.
I see a new book in the making . . . . . . . . . . .
Comment by The OTHER Pat — December 27, 2008 @ 8:20 am
Performance bred retrievers, which includes all flat-coats and Chesapeakes, are active and “drivey” dogs. If you get one and keep it shut up in a house all day, don’t expect the furniture to be left intact. Field-line Labs are probably the most extreme of all retrievers because they have been bred for many more generations than the rest to compete at high level field competition. Marley was a product of this breeding. To buy a dog like this and not exercise it or give it proper outlet for his retrieving motor patterns is a very silly thing to do.
These retrievers are so popular as pets because if you train them and fully exercise them and focus their energy, they are really remarkable animals. However, if you don’t do those things, you have a crazy dog on your hands.
I saw the film yesterday, and I had many of these criticisms. I had them after reading the book, too. But the end of the dog’s life was the hardest piece of film I’ve ever seen. However, about half-way through the film, my dad leaned over and told me what I had already been thinking, Marley needed more exercise.
I wish Mr. Grogan had received help from a real behaviorist and not Mr. Pop Culture Dog trainer, Cesar Millan. These retriever dogs have been bred to carry things in their mouths and to take direction. They do not need to be bullied in submission to get them to behave. You just need to teach them proper behavior from the get go.
Comment by retrieverman — December 27, 2008 @ 9:28 am
I heard there will be a Jon Katz movie too. Fabulous.
I won’t be seeing the Marley movie. I read the book. I was very good and did not throw it across the room at any point (mostly because it did not belong to me) but I considered it. Stop being so darned amused by your own stupidity and find a good trainer. Seriously.
Comment by katie — December 27, 2008 @ 11:53 am
Retrieverman: Millan called in a trainer who knew field bred labs and turned the pup over to her right on camera. He came back few weeks later for a follow-up. (And he’s never considered himself a trainer, but a rehabilitator. Watch the episode before you judge.).
He knew he didn’t have the knowledge to help that kind of dog and found someone that could. Educating the humans was probably much more difficult.
At least Grogan is a great poster boy for How Not To Own A Dog and who can be used as a handy example.
Comment by Susan Fox — December 27, 2008 @ 1:20 pm
I haven’t read the book or seen the movie. But I watched the “Dog Whisperer” episode and immediately saw that the Grogan family learned nothing and were still ignorant, if not stupid, dog owners.
I know people are usually awkward on camera and editing can make anyone look different. But what I took away is that the dog was probably just fine, as the family was just pathetic.
As for Cesar, I’m surprised that anyone still thinks he’s a “bully.” That’s a-whole-nother argument, but nothing about his methods involves bullying a dog into submission. If you’ve ever seen the show, he’s actually pretty restrained and most of all patient. A touch and “shhht” is about as rough as it gets.
A click, treat, and hug is not the solution to all problems. And IMO, most “abused” dogs are not beaten by evil big bad men, but coddled by indulgent mothering types (of both gender before I get called a sexist) who reinforce bad behavior and set up no structure.
Many of the rescue-complex people fall into this trap. They are going to luv the dog back into normalcy and they wonder why the “abused” pet never gets better, only worse.
Such animals are the dog equivalents of Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, and Britney Spears… they were abused by lack of discipline, coddled and idolized by their parents.
Cesar is great, and GETS RESULTS, because he works more with stupid humans being stupid humans than he works with dogs. He’s not a trainer, and training is only one aspect of structure that can be given to a dog.
Clicking and treat is wonderful, but getting an obedient dog is not the same thing as having a well adjusted dog. I’ve met plenty of messed up but brilliantly trained dogs.
Comment by Christopher — December 27, 2008 @ 5:27 pm
” A touch and “shhht” is about as rough as it gets.”
wow, you’re not watching the same show I am.
He no longer just “touches” (actually an annoying poke); he now kicks the dogs. Not to mention the leash jerks, the alpha rolls, and the “flooding” of fearful dogs into situations that terrify them.
It’s true he has an important message of “exercise, discipline and affection”. But you think he gets results because ….the program only shows him getting results.
Do you honestly believe that behavior problems are “solved” by a couple of hours of walking down the street, or a week of being surrounded by dogs at his Center (funny how more and more of the programs propose THAT as the only solution)?
Comment by EmilyS — December 27, 2008 @ 5:53 pm
As for Cesar, I’m surprised that anyone still thinks he’s a “bully.” That’s a-whole-nother argument, but nothing about his methods involves bullying a dog into submission. If you’ve ever seen the show, he’s actually pretty restrained and most of all patient. A touch and “shhht” is about as rough as it gets.
I’ve watched every episode, multiple times. I love Cesar.
But in some cases—not all cases, not every case his critics claim it for—the dog, when Cesar is done, is not “calm” but shut down. And while most of what he does is “shhht” and the touch, in claiming that that’s “as rough as it gets,” you’re leaving out the alpha rolls and the holding dogs down until they just give up.
He uses a lot of positive-reinforcement training. And for the people who claim they’ve never seen it, that he doesn’t, he’s done it on-screen, in high-profile episodes. But he also does the alpha role thing, and some of his episodes have left me deeply uncomfortable.
A lot of dogs would be a lot better off if more people listened to his basic mantra of “exercise, discipline, affection.” Read his books, and you find that for puppies and for dogs without established, serious behavior problems, he recommends the positive-reinforcement training you sneer at. For the Grogans’ second dog, he called in a trainer who specialized in field-line dogs, because his ego is not tied up in thinking that his way is the only way—unlike a lot of “traditional” trainers.
A click, treat, and hug is not the solution to all problems. And IMO, most “abused” dogs are not beaten by evil big bad men, but coddled by indulgent mothering types (of both gender before I get called a sexist) who reinforce bad behavior and set up no structure.
Cutesie disclaimers don’t make a sexist description be not sexist.
“A click, a treat, and a hug” is not a description of clicker training that’s even intended to be fair and objective. Nor is positive-reinforcement training in any way a lack of rules or discipline.
Many of the rescue-complex people fall into this trap. They are going to luv the dog back into normalcy and they wonder why the “abused” pet never gets better, only worse.
Addy arrived in my home a year and a half ago scared of unfamiliar people, many of the accoutrements of daily life in the city, and other dogs. She cowered away from people; she was dangerously fear-aggressive towards other dogs. In September, she passed her CGC exam. I routinely take her to banks and bookstores with me. She has doggy friends we visit regularly, and her remaining dog-behavior problem is that she has figured out that other dogs are FUN and she’s over-excited in a positive way; she has not yet mastered the proper doggy etiquette for easily meeting new dogs. Meeting new people is a breeze, and she loves small children, even when they’re doing the things you wish small children wouldn’t do around dogs.
This was all accomplished without alpha roles, and without the bite-touch; I devoted no time at all to worrying about dominance issues; I used the clicker, treats, and lots of love and patience.
So sneer all you like, but from all that I’ve seen and read, on his tv show and in his books, Cesar Millan wouldn’t be joining you in your sneering. He doesn’t think he’s the be-all and end-all, and doesn’t think using other methods indicates a weak character. The people who need his services are mostly the people who have either not used any method at all, or they have used no method consistently.
Comment by Lis — December 27, 2008 @ 6:31 pm
And you’re not watching the same show I am if you think that he is “solving” problems in a couple of hours (more like weeks, months, on-going forever) or one week at his Center(seems like usually three to six weeks) or that he is physically abusive to the dogs in any way (never seen it and I’ve watched most episodes).
The “kick” is a just a quick push and it works. It pops the dog out of a state of mind that is starting to escalate toward the problem behavior.
Also, if you will notice the copyright dates at the end, you will see that NGC is running old episodes interleaved with new ones, so it could be deceiving as to what percentage of cases go to the center.
My feeling is that out of every 12 or so cases seen on tv, only one or two show the dog going to the Center. And since the humans are the problem, getting the dog away from them is its best hope, especially the ones some trainer has recommended the owners kill. To cover up the trainer’s failure I guess.
Comment by Susan Fox — December 27, 2008 @ 6:34 pm
This is all very interesting, because the Consumers Digest editor wanted to know if I had any ideas for another controversial topic.
Didn’t take me but two seconds to come up with “dog training.” :)
Comment by Gina Spadafori — December 27, 2008 @ 6:47 pm
The Consumers Digest editor wants to work you to death? :)
Comment by Lis — December 27, 2008 @ 6:50 pm
I think he was looking at it for many months down the road. I mean, really, how many pet-related pieces can you have in a general-interest mag? A couple a year? One a year? That’s about it, I’d say.
And that’s fine with me. Heaven knows we have lots of other projects we’re fussing with behind the scenes here. Hoping those will pan out first. Coupla new book ideas, mebbe.
But really, I was so pleased with the Consumers Digest piece. I mean, gosh, it made me seem fair and common-sense-oriented, and that’s hard to do! ;P
Comment by Gina Spadafori — December 27, 2008 @ 6:59 pm
Oh EmilyS, you’re being inflammatory. I’ve seen someone PUNT a dog. That is a kick. What Millan does is not a kick.
Touching the dog with your foot is not abusive, it’s not damaging to the dog, and it’s not a kick, any more than touching the dog with your hand is a punch.
And let me be clear, I don’t care if you like Cesar or not or have your “I don’t spank my children” philosophy or not. There are many ways to create well behaved dogs and for the most part ANyTHING works. As in, doing nothing is the biggest problem.
If you don’t like leash jerks, touching the dog, negative corrections, or anything like that, fine. If your theories don’t work it will never be my problem. And if you create a wonderful fur child with whatever religion of training you adopt, kudos.
I don’t believe in Cesar as a religion. And his ways are certainly not the only ways. But the typical response against him is more dogma and theory than problems with the results.
You can question the magic of Television all you want, but it’s pretty clear what he does works and he gets positive progress in one afternoon. In contrast, I’ve seen shows like “Shelter Dogs” where the woman who makes a living running around promoting her temperament tests and who lives in a mess with poorly behaved dogs claim to be an expert in deciding if an animal should be killed or not.
She didn’t perform any miracles or make any progress with any of the dogs in her time on film. Rather, she wagged a plastic hand in a starving dog’s face until it bit the hand and then had the dog killed. But she doesn’t believe in ear pinching or leash jerks either. She must be humane like you!
There’s no reason to convince you to start “kicking” and “punching” and “body slamming” your dog if that’s what you really think it is… it’s not the only way and if you are so reactive to what it really is, I don’t think you’d find those methods effective anyway.
But IMO, all the horrible “abuse” you could ever muster out of Cesar would be better than allowing a dog to rot in the hands of well meaning people who are failures like Marley’s parents.
Comment by Christopher — December 27, 2008 @ 7:35 pm
Lis, I didn’t sneer at your methods at all. I sneer at the idea that positive only is the ONLY way. Or even the best way.
Karen Pryor despite being both a clicker maven and a positive only person isn’t the only authority on training and the man who actually invented the clicker was perfectly willing to “shoot the dog” and use negative and aggressive techniques when warranted.
For example, no amount of positive training is going to solve the problem of the Border Collie who lost an eye going after the tractor tire of a moving combine. A tasty treat is no substitute and the e-collar was effective and appropriate. You don’t like shocking your dog? Fine, but I doubt you’ll be able to cut through an obsessive dangerous behavior with love, clicks, and some E-Z-Cheeze.
I think the same applies to bite situations.
Being physical and even pinning a dog in a submissive position is not bullying. Bullying is being cruel and brutal and intentionally causing harm for no higher purpose.
Being physical is not sufficient, especially when it’s done for therapeutic reasons.
IMO, there’s nothing abusive or rough about pinning a nasty dog down. There is certainly nothing wrong with it when the DOG is being a bully and causing REAL phyical harm to the humans.
There are dogs that need to be shut down. And just like there was a “hug” therapy with out of control kids that was highly controversial, I’m not surprised that there are people who aren’t going to like any aspect of being physical.
Then again, there are people who go to bars and get in fights just for fun. We’re a diverse race and there’s no accounting for taste.
But it’s clear to me that it’s much more cruel to kill a dog that bites or even allow it to happen again than to use methods some can’t stomach. To me, they’re tame.
And men and women are different. Everything isn’t sexist. Get over it. Hormones are real, they lead to real behavioral differences and real physical differences in the brain. And men and women don’t play equal or the same rolls in most of the families we see on these shows or in reality.
There’s nothing sexist about it, it’s a reality.
Comment by Christopher — December 27, 2008 @ 8:06 pm
Gina, I think a dog training article by you would be awesome!! Go for it! We’ve all sure given you plenty of raw material over time. ;-)
Comment by Susan Fox — December 27, 2008 @ 8:11 pm
EmilyS, honestly, I gotta say, just like Gina and Christie tell people to read “Redemption”, you really ought to read “Be The Pack Leader” before being so judgemental about Millan. He’s one of the great advocates dogs have these days, especially bully and strong breeds like rotties and pit bulls.
As Christopher says, he’s not my religion, but I’ve found his approach very complimentary to the positive training I first learned, especially with shelter dogs.
Comment by Susan Fox — December 27, 2008 @ 8:33 pm
I’ve read all of Cesar’s books and seen all his shows.
Why do people assume that anyone who questions his techniques hasn’t done so?
Neither you nor Christopher seems to have done the same, at least with your eyes open.
And Christopher, your assumption that Sternberg is “humane” or that I agree with her techniques just shows your own immaturity, which is so often on ample display here and on your own blog. Your experience of dog training and of “positive” techniques is clearly limited.
Comment by EmilyS — December 27, 2008 @ 8:49 pm
Why do you take everything personally? I say something about mothering and suddenly it’s a sexist attack on your gender!
If anything, I’ve made a point for greater acceptance and tolerance of diversity. My point is that Cesar isn’t wrong because he is different or because he does things your fine taste say are no-no-nos.
And I didn’t say you were ignorant of Cesar’s techniques, I said your characterizations are wrong. You’re hinting at “big mean man kicks dog” when it’s more like “little nice man touches out of control animal with foot.”
And since I’m not personally attacking you (I could care less about your doggy resume, as you seem obsessed with mine, if you do something wrong and stupid for 10 years does it make you more qualified to win an argument?) as I have no knowledge of what you do other than your comments. If you have a blog where you pontificate and journal your life, I certainly don’t know about it.
I used Sternberg as an example. Someone who says “how nice it is that I’m not using a nasty chain or pinching an ear, that’d be BARBARIC! But I’ll kill the dog since it doesn’t like a plastic hand in its face.”
If anything, Cesar and other TV Celebrity Dogxperts have shown that the reactions that would disqualify a dog from life according to Sternberg are straightforward to undo with a little effort.
If Sternberg were the Dog Whisperer, every single dog on every single show would end up dead. But how nice of her not to touch the dog with her foot and turn it on its back.
Comment by Christopher — December 27, 2008 @ 9:16 pm
The beguiling thing about coercive approaches to dog training is their apparent effectiveness - and so quickly! But how long do the results last? How long does the dog who was “tapped” with a foot or alpha-rolled remain in that quiescent state of mind before previous behaviors reappear again? Because one of the by-products of punishment-based training methods is that they frequently act to suppress ALL behaviors - at least temporarily - and the dog seems quiet and “fixed”. But is he really? That’s one of many questions that come up when evaluating trainers like Cesar Milan.
Here’s an interesting article on the byproducts of coercive methods of behavior modification:
http://www.behaviorlogic.com/id97.html
Comment by The OTHER Pat — December 27, 2008 @ 11:13 pm
You can question the magic of Television all you want, but it’s pretty clear what he does works and he gets positive progress in one afternoon. In contrast, I’ve seen shows like “Shelter Dogs” where the woman who makes a living running around promoting her temperament tests and who lives in a mess with poorly behaved dogs claim to be an expert in deciding if an animal should be killed or not.
She didn’t perform any miracles or make any progress with any of the dogs in her time on film. Rather, she wagged a plastic hand in a starving dog’s face until it bit the hand and then had the dog killed. But she doesn’t believe in ear pinching or leash jerks either. She must be humane like you!
You’re talking about Susan Sternberg, and no one who doesn’t share her Kill The Dog Now philosophy considers her “humane.” She doesn’t disapprove of ear pinches etc. because she prefers positive-reinforcement techniques; she disapproves because she’d rather kill the dog. Her “temperament testing” is designed to “fail” as many dogs as possible, and send them to the death room.
Lis, I didn’t sneer at your methods at all. I sneer at the idea that positive only is the ONLY way. Or even the best way.
Now, see, this is an example of either the ignorance or the intellectual dishonesty of fans of “traditional” training methods. Nobody believes in “positive only.” What clicker trainers and positive-reinforcement trainers in general disagree with is positive punishment. Distraction, negative punishment, and controlling the dog and the circumstances to set the dog up for success and positive reinforcement are guite effective.
I used Sternberg as an example. Someone who says “how nice it is that I’m not using a nasty chain or pinching an ear, that’d be BARBARIC! But I’ll kill the dog since it doesn’t like a plastic hand in its face.”
But Sternberg is not an example of a positive-reinforcement trainer, and trying to use her as one is displaying either ignorance, or intellectual dishonesty.
For example, no amount of positive training is going to solve the problem of the Border Collie who lost an eye going after the tractor tire of a moving combine. A tasty treat is no substitute and the e-collar was effective and appropriate.
Yes, I remember that episode. And yes, it was an extreme and dangerous situation, that really did need immediate results. I certainly can’t condemn its use in those circumstances.
What was really interesting, though, was Cesar’s body language. The shock collar wasn’t his choice of tool; it was the owner’s. And while he didn’t disagree strongly enough to refuse, it was pretty clear that it wouldn’t have been his first choice. Whatever he would have chosen, we’ll likely never know, because that will have been left on the cutting room floor.
You don’t like shocking your dog? Fine, but I doubt you’ll be able to cut through an obsessive dangerous behavior with love, clicks, and some E-Z-Cheeze.
Love, clicks, and string cheese have been extremely effective in altering Addy’s attitude towards unfamiliar dogs, from I-Must-Kill-Before-They-Kill-Me to I-Wanna-PLAAAAYYYY!!!
Why do you take everything personally? I say something about mothering and suddenly it’s a sexist attack on your gender!
Because your remark about “mothering” was intended to be demeaning, and to discredit what you associated it with. That’s sexist, and it’s been a few decades since I was insecure enough to be embarrassed out of objecting to sexist remarks by “you have no sense of humor” type responses.
If anything, I’ve made a point for greater acceptance and tolerance of diversity. My point is that Cesar isn’t wrong because he is different or because he does things your fine taste say are no-no-nos.
Another remark that’s intended to demean rather than honestly respond to someone who disagrees with you.
It’s worth noting that this is a response that Cesar Millan, whom you think you’re defending, would not be guilty of.
Being physical and even pinning a dog in a submissive position is not bullying. Bullying is being cruel and brutal and intentionally causing harm for no higher purpose.
Sadly, some awfully abusive behaviors can be performed with a genuine intention to make things better. Sometimes intention makes an important difference; sometimes it doesn’t.
The Monks of New Skete, who first introduced the alpha roll, are among those who’ve concluded that it is in fact a really bad idea. If you really have a dog with dominance issues, rather than just not understanding what behavior is appropriate, you’re likely to get bitten. Cesar in fact gets nailed fairly regularly. He’s okay with that. Most people aren’t, and even if they are, a bite that requires medical attention will get reported—and now the dog has a bite record. Or another bite on its record. Which means that completely aside from the question of who is right about how alpha rolling affects the dog’s attitude, it’s potentially really bad for the dog’s long-term survival.
And to EmilyS:
I’ve read all of Cesar’s books and seen all his shows.
Why do people assume that anyone who questions his techniques hasn’t done so?
Perhaps because he both uses and advocates positive-reinforcement methods for most dogs most of the time. For all that I disagree with some of what he does with adult dogs with well-established problem behaviors, that’s not how he advocates people interact with puppies or with adult dogs without major behavior problems. If more people listened to what he’s saying on his shows, rather than focusing only on the high-drama moments the editing encourages us to focus on, or read his books, many fewer dogs would ever develop major behavior problems.
Granted, once a dog does have problems, I’d rather the owners look to Victoria Stilwell, if they’re watching tv, or a long list of other names, if they’re reading books.
But a frightening number of people really do need to be told, right at the beginning: Walk your dog. Make the rules of the house clear, don’t make the dog guess. Pet and cuddle when the dog is calm, happy, well-behaved, not when she’s scared, stressed, or doing something you don’t want. Reward the behavior you want, not the behavior you don’t want. And walk your dog. Yes, again. And again. (With due allowance for your dog’s physical capacity and whether the weather conditions are safe.)
Comment by Lis — December 28, 2008 @ 7:30 am
Wow, OK … I go to bed and wake up with lots of great reading.
First, my impression is that both Christopher and Lis are right: There IS a general gender difference in how dogs are perceived and treated. Chris is right in calling it, and Lis is right on calling him on HOW he called it. I see all the time discussions that veer into sneering by men (who I don’t think even realize how they come across) with regard to (primarily) white, middle-aged women and their dogs. I think it’s right to bring it up and discuss it, as long as we do so in a way that brings light, not heat.
Second, I think people take out of Millan what they put in. Bias in, bias out. I have watched the show only a couple of times, wasn’t interested further. As was noted above, if I want to see dysfunctional dog-owner relationships, I can go to a dog park. Or open my e-mail. But my impression was that like the late Barbara Woodhouse he has a natural way with dogs, and they respond to that.
Third, I absolutely do not believe any one person or method has all the answers for absolutely every dog, owner and training goal. I don’t even use the same techniques in my own home on my own dogs. The retrievers field-train and learned their recalls with e-collars — and believe me, it hasn’t affected their drive, happiness and personality. I would no more e-collar the Sheltie than the cats — he’d shut down forever. Three of the four dogs have also been clicker-trained, and I’ll be adding the fourth to that mix (more on The Woody Project” in another post). And ALL of them live in a “holistic” environment of nothing in life is free. Yeah, I’m the pack leader. Live with it.
I guess overall I believe in exercise, limits and love (and getting help when you need it, including pharmaceutical). I think all good trainers — “positive,” “balanced” or “traditional” — are the same in this regard.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — December 28, 2008 @ 8:41 am
Christopher (and others who are sure that dominance/adversive methods are the only ones that can work with dangerous/aggressive dogs): I suggest you read “Click to Calm” by Parsons and “Aggression in Dogs” by Aloff.. both outline “positive” methods to counter-condition dogs that hate or fear “x” (can be other dogs or anything else).
Of course, these methods take longer, and require more patience and willingness to understand a dog than the typical e-collar, jerk, alpha-roll methods. Those latter methods ALSO can work, but there are other methods that people who don’t like those methods have developed over the years.
I don’t regard Cesar’s methods (poking and leashjerking and alpharolling) as mostly positive. I think he IS someone who loves dogs and has a natural (or learned) authority around them, so dogs often give him the good behavior he asks for. I absolutely agree with you Lis (and stated in my previous post) that his message to owners about exercise, discipline and affection is very very important. I agree that a stunning number of dog owners are just plain stupid, as well as ignorant.
But Millan is a “one note” trainer who is selling his method, and the reality is that “one note” doesn’t work for every dog. Personally, he lost me when he allowed an obviously dog-aggressive pit bull to attack his own dear Daddy (a sweet lovely pit bull who Cesar feeds too much and asks to do too much.. Daddy needs to lose at least 5 pounds and appears to be arthritic) because he’s so wrapped up in his own “dogs learn from other dogs” mantra. He failed to properly observe the other dog, and he betrayed his own. No less than Grogan failed and betrayed Marley, or Katz failed and betrayed Orson.
Comment by EmilyS — December 28, 2008 @ 10:52 am
EmilyS, One more time:
Millan is NOT a trainer, which you would know if you’d really read his books. He is a dog rehabilitator. He “rehabilitates dogs and trains people”, which you would know if you listened to the show. It’s right there in the opening credits, every episode.
I think that he has created a very important distinction that deserves to be acknowledged:
There is a significant difference in philosophy, intention and approach between what he calls “rehabilitation” and what is called “training” IMHO. I believe that understanding that distinction is a big part of what’s missing in any discussion of what he does. It’s like comparing tea and coffee. Some similarities, but also fundamental differences.
The fact that he is the originator and pretty much sole practitioner of what is really a new approach to working with dogs may be where a lot of the misunderstanding and hostility comes from.
(I really do wonder is there is some gender bias in operation here since the most vicious criticism seems to come from women. Is he really that threatening? Some of it should probably be printed in green ink, too.)
One of the things I like about Millan is that it is obvious that he is always open to new approaches for whatever will help a dog become stable and balanced.
He’s flexible, not doctrinaire, which is quite refreshing. Over each season, he’s clearly added to his knowledge and changed his approach as he’s learned. He has no “method” to sell that I have seen other than “exercise, discipline and affection” and “rules, boundaries and limitations”, which you have acknowledged.
I’ll let someone else correct your mis-perceptions about Daddy.
You sound as eager to set Millan up to fail as Sternberg is the dogs she “tests”. Are dogs in such great shape in our society that we can afford to choose up sides in a dualistic battle of right and wrong, instead of finding common ground through civil discourse?
Comment by Susan Fox — December 28, 2008 @ 12:03 pm
Originator? Of what?
I’m curious what the veterinary behaviorists who work with extreme cases consider their work to be. Rehabilitation or training. Or something else?
Comment by katie — December 28, 2008 @ 2:10 pm
Personally, I believe dogs are learning, all the time, and from every interaction they have with us, with each other, and with their environment. As Jean Donaldson said in “Culture Clash”, “Dogs do what works”.
Consequently, I prefer to think of “teaching” dogs rather than of “training” dogs, and that ANYTHING we do with the intent of changing a dog’s behavior is a teaching moment. Not a training moment, not a “rehabilitating” moment. But a TEACHING moment. We are their teachers - 24/7 (when they’re with us) and the most responsible thing we can do is always remember that one simple fact.
The trick is to try and make sure we’re teaching what we THINK we’re teaching, and the best way to get to that is through manipulation of the dog’s environment and of the consequences available so the dog will learn what you hope he will learn as a result of the dog’s actions and the dog’s choices. And again, that holds true whether you call what you’re doing “training”, “rehabilitating”, or “teaching”.
The dog is *always* learning. Hopefully, we remember that that means that we - in turn - are *always* teaching. And that lends added weight to the choices WE make.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — December 28, 2008 @ 2:26 pm
EmilyS said:
I don’t regard Cesar’s methods (poking and leashjerking and alpharolling) as mostly positive.
Um. Emily, I agree with a lot of what you say, but you’re cherrypicking here, picking out the things that Cesar does that aren’t positive, and discovering that, hey, they’re not positive! The show tends to focus on those things, yes—it makes better tv—but watching the show critically, or actually reading his books, reveals that those things are a small part of what he does, not the primary techniques he uses on most dogs.
Granted, that’s something his fans are also reluctant to acknowledge.
Susan Fox said:
The fact that he is the originator and pretty much sole practitioner of what is really a new approach to working with dogs may be where a lot of the misunderstanding and hostility comes from.
He’s taken traditional training methods, the alpha roll invented by the Monks of New Skete but now rejected by them, New Age-y beliefs about “energy”, and a great love of and natural rapport with dogs—not much original there. What’s different about Cesar, what sets him apart from most trainers and behaviorists whatever their methods, are his charisma and Human Whispering skills.
(My dog and I attended a three-hour seminar with Brian Kilcommons once. It was tremendously useful and interesting and I learned a lot that I believe got us over the hump to enable my dog to pass her Canine Good Citizen test. He’s fantastic with dogs. But people? Sorry, I don’t think I ever want to repeat that experience!)
(I really do wonder is there is some gender bias in operation here since the most vicious criticism seems to come from women. Is he really that threatening? Some of it should probably be printed in green ink, too.)
Ad hominem, or, if you like, ad feminem, and not worth responding to. Worth noting, though, I think.
One of the things I like about Millan is that it is obvious that he is always open to new approaches for whatever will help a dog become stable and balanced.
Yup. Something that sets him apart, quite strikingly, from a lot of his fans and so-called supporters.
Comment by Lis — December 28, 2008 @ 4:01 pm
Anybody but me see John Grogan’s PSA with the AKC? Sheesh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiPWSbXbUGE Unless at the end he had said “I wish I had” then they didn’t pick a very good spokesperson.
Comment by Lori — December 29, 2008 @ 9:26 am
I do think that the protein levels in dog food needs to be addressed. My dog, a neutered terrier mix, is protein sensitive so I need to keep him on about 5% protein daily otherwise he becomes aggressive due to the buildup of ammonia in his system. If it were not for Dr. Nicholas Dodman’s book, Dog’s Behaving Badly” (page 273/”Diet”), I would have never known that this was the cause of the dog’s problems.
Our vet, who had recommended the neutering, knew that we had owner aggression issues with our dog. I told her about Dr. Dodman’s book and the diet aspect to aggression. She hadn’t heard of it before. Although our dog didn’t have the symptoms of diabetes or liver shunt, I asked if we could have him tested to rule those out as the source of his problems. He tested fine so that left us with protein
Our vet suggested a senior canned food (no dry as it stays in the digestive system too long)
The senior food wasn’t quite low enough in protein (6%) plus he didn’t like it so I switched to Purina One canned dog food and divided his rations to around a 5-6% protein level. It worked, his behavior has greatly improved and he responds wells to training.
Too much protein in a dog’s diet is a bit like putting your finger in the electrical socket, it’s a shock to the system and keeps you “wired” for the day. Although this would appear to be a rare condition, it should be something considered when dealing with an aggressive dog.
Regarding dog training, I’ve read numerous books and watched Millan’s and “Uncle Matty” videos. There is something to be gleamed from each. The books I prefer are Dr. Dodman’s and Matthew Margolis best known as “Uncle Matty”.
While I don’t use the high pitch voice that “Uncle Matty” uses, my dog loves the video. I don’t use a choke collar and do not believe in the “alpha roll” but I have found that each dog is different and you have to discover what works for yours.
Comment by Linda — December 29, 2008 @ 10:51 am
Did anyone else notice the complete lack of ethnic diversity in this film? Only four non-white characters appear in film, only two with bit-part speaking roles. The first is an Asian, who play’s an obnoxious dog owner at the beach. The last is the token successful black, a head at the Philidelpha Inquirer. The only other two non-White characters who appear in the film, without dialogue? Two black garbage collectors in Florida
Comment by Kevin — December 30, 2008 @ 1:51 am
I listened to the book on audio cd while taking a 12 hour drive. While I agree that nearly all puppy problems are people problems, I still found it an enjoyable listen. I do admit, I had to pause it every so often and tell my passenger that it didn’t have to be that way. I’m sure that was annoying. However, the larger through line of animal-people relationships through trying times in life, the companionship and the way a dog marks an era in life were worth the frustration for me. I guess it’s also difficult when a book becomes so popular, because then it may be seen as a “role model” of sorts, which it definitely is not. I don’t really subscribe to that way of thinking though. I love to read David Sedaris, but I won’t be have my own hallucinogenic drug phrase to create art because his story made me roll on the floor.
I will probably see the movie, but I’m going in with the idea that it is a movie and is for entertainment purposes. I’ve trained dogs. I don’t think bad dogs are funny, but this is a movie, not an assignment.
As for Cesar, I can’t watch that show anymore or read anymore of his stuff. I think SOME of his methods are fine, but I don’t agree with the philosophy behind it. I don’t need to teach my dogs that I’m the pack leader. I need to teach them how to appropriately interact with their environment, including dogs and people. If I’m the pack leader, what happens when I’m not there? Is it ok to jump on someone who does not show strong dog understanding and leadership? NO.
One of my boyfriend’s colleagues hired a trainer that had them “hump” their dog to show their dog what the hierarchy in the family looks like. Laughable. I asked if grandma needed to hump the dog when she comes over so that the dog respects her.
Dogs are social animals. Teach them how to communicate, ask for attention from people, play, etc., and they’ll get it. They need to learn manners more than they need to be put in their place. Just like kids.
If dogs are still looking for a pack leader and have not evolved at all, then I guess I should be asking my boyfriend to drag me around by the hair and go hunt me down some dinner. Things just aren’t that simple. We don’t live in that time anymore and neither do our dogs.
I guess for some there’s a nature vs nurture difference in training philosophy. And no, nurture does not mean “mothering” :)
Comment by Amy — December 31, 2008 @ 1:07 am
“One of my boyfriend’s colleagues hired a trainer that had them “hump” their dog to show their dog what the hierarchy in the family looks like. Laughable.”
I heard a “trainer” suggest that you should urinate into a spray bottle and spray your dog with it when he does something you don’t like, because wolves urinate on each other show to dominance. Um… ew.
Comment by Megan — January 1, 2009 @ 8:12 am
I have not seen the movie yet but am very anxious to.I read the book and although it was very depressing it was TRUE. Labs are wonderful dogs, I own a American black lab and a English black lab and when I read the book it brought back memories of when my two were pups. John shared his experience of the love he had for Marley and all the good and bad experiences he had raising Marley..I think it is wonderful that John loved Marley so much that he wrote a book about his dog,true it was sad but isn’t it always sad when you lose your best friend,your pet..
Comment by Bonnie Smith — January 1, 2009 @ 8:00 pm
I was going to see the movie until I heard the ending of it. It is hard enough dealing with a loss of a pet, without having to watch it in a movie.
I have 3 well mannered labs, that never caused any problems, you have to be a responsible pet owner and I am afraid this movie will just add yellow labs to the unwanted pet list as did 101 dalmations did. I think a % of the money made on this movie should be donated to no kill shelters across America.
Comment by debbie — January 2, 2009 @ 2:32 pm
I read the book and saw the movie. I think they were both how “mainstream” America treats their dogs because of being uneducated.
I see so many people who hit their dogs and who’ve never heard of or do not believe dogs can be trained. It breaks my heart to see animals being mistreated.
I viewed the movie as a tool to educate folks with their dogs. I’m glad I saw it and read the book.
Comment by Susan Calvert — January 3, 2009 @ 11:35 pm
I’m reading the book right now and I can’t put it down. It’s absolutely fabulous and I can’t wait to see the movie! Maybe if these people read the whole story and not just half of it, they would have found that the”world’s worst dog” title was nothing but a mockery of how great of a dog he was. No matter how successful a writer’s story is, there’s always someone out there to discredit that success. It’s sad and I can only wonder how many great writers out there are holding back on what they write because of fear of being criticized by people like Gina Spafadori.
Look, to the Grogans, Marley was perfect. This is what is reiterated throughout the entire book. They weren’t looking for a perfectly, well-trained dog in the least. But when his wife had a miscarriage, that dog was there with his head on her bed the entire time. That’s what a dog meant to them.. they needed love and they loved that dog more than anything. It hurts me to read the things that have been said about this book. It’s a great book with lots of relatable instances, coming from a 100 pound yellow lab owner myself. To me, if you have that big of a problem with having a dog tear up a shoe or knock over a plant with it’s tail, you shouldn’t have a dog in the first place. No dog should ever act 100% perfect, otherwise I would have missed out on thousands of laughs throughout my life.
Kudos to the Grogans for great success and a great story.
Comment by Glenna Z — January 11, 2009 @ 10:01 pm
To me, if you have that big of a problem with having a dog tear up a shoe or knock over a plant with it’s tail, you shouldn’t have a dog in the first place. No dog should ever act 100% perfect, otherwise I would have missed out on thousands of laughs throughout my life.
If a dog chews up a shoe, you screwed up. And if you have a Lab or another big breed with a powerful tail, and you have breakable things on surfaces within reach of the swing of that tail, you may not have thought things through completely.
And if your loving, devoted, really-wants-to-please-you dog is more or less continuously doing things that destroy your property, wreak havoc all around, and place you and the dog in danger, you’re an irresponsible pet owner who has not taken the time and trouble to give your dog the training, time, and activity it needs.
The Grogans loved Marley, sure, but they were totally unprepared and unsuitable owners for a field-line Labrador Retriever.
Comment by Lis — January 12, 2009 @ 6:08 am
Here’s my detailed account of the movie:
http://susancalvert.blogspot.c.....art-2.html
Comment by Susan Calvert — January 14, 2009 @ 9:25 pm
So I was sitting in the waiting room of the Ear Nose and Throat Specialist waiting to hear the the Mono is definitely on it’s way OUT (it, is; yay!). I picked up the Jan 12 edition of People magazine and flipped to a mini interview with John Grogan.
On his new dog Woodson (who was one of the puppies in the movie)and finding out he has severe hip dysplasia: “We noticed he had trouble going upstairs. If he’d been sent back to the breeder he would have been put to sleep. I think he found the right family. He gives back a lot.”
Really? I wonder how they’re managing his pain.
Comment by Lori — January 19, 2009 @ 4:20 pm
I think you all are missing the point of a first time owner of a lab. I think all of you are so worried about being “incharge” of the dog you miss most of the fun. I have taken in foster dogs from abused, abandoned and very severe neglect. We have taught them manners and given a ton of love, which they need more than anything. But I do have a very loving chocolate lab that can not help how big she is (125lbs). She knocks over everything in site with her hind end. She is the worlds most loving dog. YOU ALL miss the story of how this dog transforms and is such a large part of the life of this family. How the children grow up loving a family pet. Now as a foster parent of dogs before they are ready to go to their “forever homes” this is what I want the most. A dog loved by all with some manners. Not everyone is Caesars fan. I have a fail proof method of exercise and lots and lots of love and patience when the do screw up. Don’t you when your toddler makes a mess or gets into something they are not supposed to. John is a wonderful story teller and I know he makes a lot of people appreciate their dogs and sometimes their bad traits. I know my chocolate lab always seems to find presents to give to anyone coming in the house and sometimes that is my panties or bra. I love her for that, I never stop laughing at the expression of my guests. She’s a true lab!! Don’t hate, be happy he is doing a good service and allowing people to appreciate their “babies” a little more.
Comment by Jessie — January 21, 2009 @ 7:41 pm
That’s fine. Enjoy your disobedient, ill-behaved dogs and make all the excuses for them you want. But, they’re not “BABIES”. They’re dogs. And you know, believe it or not, that’s actually ok.
PS- nothing in this world is “fail proof”, especially if living creatures are involved. Sorry.
Comment by Susan Fox — January 21, 2009 @ 8:32 pm
Quoted from Lis:
“If a dog chews up a shoe, you screwed up. And if you have a Lab or another big breed with a powerful tail, and you have breakable things on surfaces within reach of the swing of that tail, you may not have thought things through completely.”
I could NOT agree more. I’m an experienced dog owner (I thought) who’s had terriers, terrier mixes, and adult big dogs. I’ve done obedience certification, behavior modification, rescue work, you name it.
Then I acquired my first lab puppy. All bets are off.
He’s a big sweet galoot with a bad hip who was dumped in a supermarket parking lot at 5 mo. We utterly adore him and would never give him up - but I gotta say, a 60 lb puppy who can clear your coffee table and surf your countertops is a whole different ball game from a terrier pup. I spend a large portion of my waking hours removing items from his mouth that no other dog I’ve ever owned would’ve bothered with.
I’m not saying this to defend Grogan (I too winced at some of the scenes in his book). I still don’t understand why he didn’t call in a behaviorist, which I’m starting to think might be a standard requirement for lab pups. ;) But I do want to point out that young labs can pose a real challenge even to smart, dog-savvy owners.
BTW, new data out today shows the Lab is still the #1 purebred registered in the US. If you had any doubt about the growth potential for dog trainers, that should be enough to dispel it.
Comment by LauraL — January 21, 2009 @ 8:54 pm
Susan I feel very bad for your animals. I know I have touched the lives and changed the lives of many of our “thrown out” dogs. My dogs are not disobedient and ill behaved dogs. I have at times as many as 5 to 6 dogs in my home at one time. I am the pack leader! And yes there is a fail proof method of training your dogs and it is seen every time they look at you with unconditional love. YOUR job is to teach them with love, patience and perseverance. Yes they are dogs but they turn into your family and for me that can not have children they are my children. Dogs are estimated to need 146,000 hugs in a lifetime and for all the dogs that have been thrown out and have ended up in my foster care before going to their “forever” homes. I give hugs and love daily along with training. I know other people feel this way look at the dog supply industry, like Petsmart, in these hard times they are still doing well. I thank God for allowing me to be apart of these dogs lives and I know the owners of all the foster dogs that I keep in touch with do to. Susan you are missing out not having doggie babies, you must be very lonely. I know my husband and are not!
Comment by Jessie — January 24, 2009 @ 11:38 am
Dogs are estimated to need 146,000 hugs in a lifetime.
Comment by Jessie — January 24, 2009
By whom? Citation for such goofiness, please.
Believe me, you don’t have to feel sorry for any animal owned by the commentors here, Susan included.
The point was that treating dogs like “babies” or imagining them as “human children” is wackadoodle. And it’s not good for the dogs themselves, who often become neurotic as hell.
Dogs enjoy being dogs. It’s what they are, not human children in fur coats. People who understand and enjoy dogs for being dogs have healthier relationships with their pets and healthier, happier pets, as well.
Since you’re experienced foster folks, I’m going to guess you really know this. And hey, hugs never hurt anyone. But still … encouraging people to think of pets as children sets the stage for a lot of potential problems.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — January 24, 2009 @ 11:57 am
Gina, this quote citation comes from “A rare breed of Love” Jana Hohl. Goofiness I think NOT.
Comment by Jessie — January 24, 2009 @ 5:42 pm
Jessie, here is an article referencing the work of Patricia McConnell and Turid Rugaas, two well known and respected behaviorists (or more properly, ethologist - at least in the case of Turid Rugaas) which explains why dogs not only DON’T need hugs, but that it can be risky to push hugs on certain dogs in certain situations:
http://www.clickersolutions.co.....2/hugs.htm
It is a testament to the adaptability and biddability of these dogs that we love that they succumb to hugging as well as they do. But the fact that they will LET us do this very human thing to them in no way, shape or form indicates that hugs are something that dogs *need*.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — January 24, 2009 @ 6:02 pm
Gina, this quote citation comes from “A rare breed of Love” Jana Hohl. Goofiness I think NOT.
Comment by Jessie — January 24, 2009
It’s still ridiculous, fuzzy-headed goofiness. No one can “estimate how many hugs a dog needs in a lifetime” … even if they did need them, which they don’t.
Again, you seem to be a little confused about the difference between people and dogs.
But hey, if it keeps you fostering …
Comment by Gina Spadafori — January 24, 2009 @ 6:58 pm
Jessie, you can skip the patronizing tone of voice and assumptions about my life. If I’d wanted kids, I would have had kids, my own or by adoption.
My dog and cats are not a substitute for anything. They are treasured for PRECISELY who they are, not what I need them to be.
I never had a dog or cat until after I was 30 due to allergies. I can’t tell you what a privilege it is to finally have real, live animals in my life. I revel in finally getting to share my life with other species and trying to learn about how they see the world and maybe a little about what their world is like.
Niki the Collie seems to be currently seeing the world through…pizza, which is about to go in the oven. He’ll get cooled off crust as a special treat. Yeah, it’s a dog’s life around here. One of the cats usually shows up, too. She loves pizza crust. Go figure. The obligate carnivore. We feed them both from the table. Shame on us.
“Doggie babies”… Yuck, bleah (eye roll)
Comment by Susan Fox — January 24, 2009 @ 7:11 pm
I kiss my cats, I confess.
I let my cats eat on the table.
I had kids, but they grew up. Now I have cats.
I know the difference—but I still kiss my cats.
Comment by Colorado Transplant — January 24, 2009 @ 8:34 pm
I know the difference—but I still kiss my cats.
Comment by Colorado Transplant — January 24, 2009
Me too, and me too!!
Comment by Gina Spadafori — January 24, 2009 @ 9:01 pm
HUGS?!?! May just be the number one reason kids are bit in the face!
Comment by nancy freedman-smith — January 25, 2009 @ 5:29 am
I agree. you are absolutely right.I was not amazed while watching the movie at all.Marley was an uruly dog deprived of lessons helping him learn how to live among people.he was poor more than being naughty and sweet.
Comment by Mahjoob — January 25, 2009 @ 6:55 am
No one is perfect, some with human children and some with furry children. I loved Marley and Me the book. It has to be on the top of my fave book list. I can say this because it was more about the fact that they darn well just loved that dog more than anything else. I didn’t look at it from the point of view that well they were rubbish owners to a good dog that just needed some training. See it for what it is a book about a man who just simply loved his dog! Dog owners are THE more self rightous set of people I have ever seen in my life, if your dog is not just exactly as perfect as they would have theirs be the down the nose looking starts. I have a dog EXACTLY the same as Marley. He is the love of my life next to my boyfriend and two cats. He had a ROUGH start to his life and so we have been working it out slowly. He ate our couch before we decided to crate him. We all live and learn! NO ONE IS PERFECT THEIR FIRST TIME AROUND! Even the most militant of trainers has made one mistake here and there. As well the message here is that you need to train and work with your dog. If you get to the end of the book it tells you that they did things very differently with their next dog Grace! Just my point of view! I like my mixed up crazy dog! If you don’t then you don’t have to be with him! It’s just that easy! Get down from your high horse! Enjoy something other than your perfect existance!
Comment by Leslie-Ann Guiney — June 16, 2009 @ 2:36 pm
New here?
Comment by Susan Fox — June 16, 2009 @ 3:28 pm
Yes actually I am new here and I have to say I love Milan and I have used many of the techniques I have learned on his show and in his books with my Brody. But I stand by my feelings about dog owners. If you don’t see it or do it their way, you are wrong. If your dog doesn’t do what their perfect dog does it is bad. This attitude is VERY evident in all of your comments here, as in other peoples. The fact that you keep going after and after and after Emily is a prevelent shining example that because her opinion of something you think is the gospel differs you are going to keep on until she changes her point of view. This is what turns people off…. I too have worked in The largest Canadian Shelter and have seen what humans do to dogs. BUT. Honestly I don’t feel lording over my dog is the right way to have a relationship with him. I feel that there has to be mutual respect and that he does what he is told not only because he HAS to because I am the master, but because he wants to. If running around the back yard like an idiot for 15 mins rather than coming when I call him is what he wants to do then I can wait for him to come for 15 mins. After all he does what I say every other time since he pretty much has to. If dog owners would stop jumping on band wagons and going for broke to get EVERYONE to come around to their newest point of view then maybe others would not be so quick to giggle when they tell stories about their dog eating their way out of the basement door! Which my dog did. You have no idea what is going on with owners. My dog was abused for the first five months of his life and I have had to deal with the after affects every day for the last two years. Seperation Problems, People Scaredness problems. Object Fear problems. So when I am walking my dog and a person comes near us with a stick, sometimes he just can’t handle it and we have to walk out onto the road. We have done all we can to get him through this but just like with many humans deep seeded terrors are hard to leave behind and you don’t know what or when they will be triggered. However if you saw him pulling me you would look at us as a bad owner and an untrained dog. BUT you have NO IDEA of our back ground! Maybe if you saw that everyone has a different type of relationship with their dog and what works for them is fine, then people like me would not feel the need to send messages like the last one I did. You are not a better dog owner than me because I let my dog walk in front of me when we are walking and you have yours at your side. We just do things differently. I like him to be in front so I know what is going on with him. I like to be able to pay attention to him. I don’t want him behind or beside where I can’t see what he is walking on, in or picking up. Further. I see so many people who would tout themselves as GREAT dog owners. Listening to iPods while walking their PERFECT dogs. Isn’t walking a time to bond to spend time with and pay attention to your dog. Can’t you listen to your iPod when you are on the public transit? But hey maybe iPod wearing while walking works for you. I am not a better dog owner than you because I sacrifice my time to listen to the backstreet boys for my dog! See my point here and run with it. You may learn to be a little less holier than thou about your posts!
Comment by Leslie-Ann Guiney — June 17, 2009 @ 11:49 am
Well, Leslie, if you want to have an ill-mannered dog, then I say knock yourself out. Better you than me.
Except, well, see the thing is that your ill-mannered dog is the reason why my well-behaved dog is no longer welcome in the local Home Depot … or the patio at my local sandwhich shop, etc.
All dogs go to heaven. Well-trained dogs can go everywhere.
I know which I’d prefer having.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 17, 2009 @ 11:58 am
Leslie-Ann, Marley wasn’t ill-behaved because he was a previously-abused rescue with issues his new owners were still working on. He was bought as a puppy from a good-enough breeder (but not an excellent one, or she wouldn’t have sold a field-bred puppy to first-time dog owners with no plan for his adequate exercise), and his owners just never gave enough of the right kind of attention to his training.
I adopted a year-old dog with Issues, who is now able to make therapy pet visits to nursing homes—but there are many, many places she can’t go with me, not because of her behavior, but because of the behavior of other dogs whose owners never adequately trained them. Her life is poorer because people like you think it’s cute to have a dog with no manners.
Comment by Lis — June 17, 2009 @ 12:19 pm
See Gina, you didn’t read my post you decided what you wanted to see and turned and attacked! I don’t have an ill-mannered dog! Neither do I want one. I have worked VERY hard with a dog that was not bred by a good breeder. He is a Field Lab and was locked in a barn for the first five months of his life, ALONE, becuase he didn’t sell with the rest of his litter and became a cost not revenue! He had no contact except two people that came with a once a day feeding, he was near to starving and is fearful of sticks, brooms, rakes, shovels etc. So we are sure that he was hit with one or the other. So what I have is a fearful dog. Which we have worked day in and day out to fix. We have a dog that has seperation anxiety which we have worked day in and day out to fix. I walk him two hours every morning before I go to work. When I come home the first thing I do before anything else is walk him for at least half an hour. Then before bed it’s another hour long jaunt round the block. I am neither irresponsible nor un-dog-savy. My boyfriend has him in the back yard every chance he gets fethcing, chasing and we go to the cottage most week-ends where he swims and retrieves from the water! I have worked in shelters both as a volunteer and employee. I know what humans do to their dogs. I for one don’t think dogs should be in Home Depot or at the patio at your local sandwich shop anymore than people should be allowed to smoke in those places. Because the other people around may not appreciate it whether your dog is behaved or not. I further don’t believe that a dog should ever be outdoors off leash. It is not fair to those around you. I have a phobia of snakes and well if I was walking around Home Depot and someone had one around their neck then I would literally have a heart attack. I should not be subjected to that because you think it is cute to have it with you! I still do feel that dog owners need to tone it down a bit Like you feel one bad dog spoils it for the rest of the good ones, I so feel one over vigilant owner spoils it for the rest of the just content to have a good dog owners! Maybe we should all take a deep breath and see Marley and Me for what it was. A story and a movie. Also if you take the time to watch what you preach about, there are in the DVD pamphlets with regard to Labradors and other Retreivers that spell out just how hard to handle they are, if not trained, exercised or balanced this is a deterant as best I have seen. There was nothing like this when the live action version of 101 Dalmations came out!
Comment by Leslie-Ann — June 17, 2009 @ 7:22 pm
Leslie-Ann, the paragraph break is your friend.
Comment by Lis — June 17, 2009 @ 7:32 pm
Well, Leslie-Ann … I afraid we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I still didn’t like the book. I’m still not wasting my time on the movie. And I still think well-mannered dogs should be welcome in many more public places. That’s not “attacking”; that’s disagreement.
I am, however, really happy you like your dog. And your boyfriend. And thanks for the tips about retrievers. Very kind of you to offer them. I’m also sure the ones in “Marley and Me” are well worth buying the DVD just to get.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — June 17, 2009 @ 7:36 pm
Do you know how to be anything other than condescending? I am neither 5 nor stupid! You win. You are all knowing and all seeing!
Comment by Leslie-Ann — June 17, 2009 @ 8:21 pm