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	<title>Comments on: Nanny-state ninnies and a little common sense</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/05/09/nanny-state-ninnies-and-a-little-common-sense/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/05/09/nanny-state-ninnies-and-a-little-common-sense/</link>
	<description>The Web blog of the Pet Connection, a pet-care feature syndicated internationally by Universal Press.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: 2CatMom</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/05/09/nanny-state-ninnies-and-a-little-common-sense/#comment-264912</link>
		<dc:creator>2CatMom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 15:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=2470#comment-264912</guid>
		<description>Other Pat:  I agree - but I don't think the officer knew that a panting cat is a bad, bad thing.  I think he thought we were a bunch of over-reactive cat lovers and didn't want a riot on his hand. And who knows how long it would have taken Animal Control (if there even was one in the town) would have taken to come. So he did at least allow us to get some relief to the cat.

Once the cat was lightly wrapped in the wet towel he perked up quite a bit, and with the windows open was probably OK.  We went and ate dinner down the block and came back about an hour later and the car was gone....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Other Pat:  I agree - but I don&#8217;t think the officer knew that a panting cat is a bad, bad thing.  I think he thought we were a bunch of over-reactive cat lovers and didn&#8217;t want a riot on his hand. And who knows how long it would have taken Animal Control (if there even was one in the town) would have taken to come. So he did at least allow us to get some relief to the cat.</p>
<p>Once the cat was lightly wrapped in the wet towel he perked up quite a bit, and with the windows open was probably OK.  We went and ate dinner down the block and came back about an hour later and the car was gone&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Russell</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/05/09/nanny-state-ninnies-and-a-little-common-sense/#comment-264905</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 15:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=2470#comment-264905</guid>
		<description>I have for years taken my two dogs with my wife and I for early morning weekend breakfasts at a local pancake shop.  The dogs love the trip and we always park the car(my Honda Element) in shade with windows cracked on cool mornings or preferably insight of our table so that I can watch the boys and make certain an over-zealous "animal lover" doesn't freak out and try to stage an escape.  

I am just as concerned about dog fight people trying to steal my dogs for their evil purposes.  It may sound far fetched but there are a lot of those people in my town.  Fortunately, they don't frequent the local pancake shop where there is always an abundance of cops having breakfast.  Funny the cops never bothered us about our dogs being in the car.  Maybe it's because we aren't doing anything wrong!  If the day is going to be warm, we leave the dogs home.  It is simple, my dogs are more important to me than many peoples children.  As evidenced by the several small children injured or killed in over-heated cars in my town every summer in recent years.  Good thing those parents aren't allowed to have dogs! Oh that's right they are:(

Richard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have for years taken my two dogs with my wife and I for early morning weekend breakfasts at a local pancake shop.  The dogs love the trip and we always park the car(my Honda Element) in shade with windows cracked on cool mornings or preferably insight of our table so that I can watch the boys and make certain an over-zealous &#8220;animal lover&#8221; doesn&#8217;t freak out and try to stage an escape.  </p>
<p>I am just as concerned about dog fight people trying to steal my dogs for their evil purposes.  It may sound far fetched but there are a lot of those people in my town.  Fortunately, they don&#8217;t frequent the local pancake shop where there is always an abundance of cops having breakfast.  Funny the cops never bothered us about our dogs being in the car.  Maybe it&#8217;s because we aren&#8217;t doing anything wrong!  If the day is going to be warm, we leave the dogs home.  It is simple, my dogs are more important to me than many peoples children.  As evidenced by the several small children injured or killed in over-heated cars in my town every summer in recent years.  Good thing those parents aren&#8217;t allowed to have dogs! Oh that&#8217;s right they are:(</p>
<p>Richard</p>
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		<title>By: The OTHER Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/05/09/nanny-state-ninnies-and-a-little-common-sense/#comment-264855</link>
		<dc:creator>The OTHER Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 13:43:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=2470#comment-264855</guid>
		<description>2CatMom - Aside from the cat's owner, I find the police officer to be the negligent one in your story.  I would have hoped he'd be knowledgeable enough to recognize a cat in distress once reported to him, but apparently he was not.  However, once he became convinced enough of the cat's distress by the onlookers to open the car and allow them to provide the cat with relief, he should have recognized that a line had been crossed, and then HE should have called the local ACO who certainly would have had more expertise than he did to accurately assess the situation.

But for him to be persuaded that the cat was in enough distress to require help, but then just SHUT THE CAT BACK UP IN THE CAR AND LEAVE IT was incredibly and almost unbelievably negligent on the part of the OFFICER.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2CatMom - Aside from the cat&#8217;s owner, I find the police officer to be the negligent one in your story.  I would have hoped he&#8217;d be knowledgeable enough to recognize a cat in distress once reported to him, but apparently he was not.  However, once he became convinced enough of the cat&#8217;s distress by the onlookers to open the car and allow them to provide the cat with relief, he should have recognized that a line had been crossed, and then HE should have called the local ACO who certainly would have had more expertise than he did to accurately assess the situation.</p>
<p>But for him to be persuaded that the cat was in enough distress to require help, but then just SHUT THE CAT BACK UP IN THE CAR AND LEAVE IT was incredibly and almost unbelievably negligent on the part of the OFFICER.</p>
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		<title>By: Gina Spadafori</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/05/09/nanny-state-ninnies-and-a-little-common-sense/#comment-264854</link>
		<dc:creator>Gina Spadafori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 13:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=2470#comment-264854</guid>
		<description>I would have -- have done -- the same. The animal was in distress. Anyone who cares would help. 

My problem was someone upbraiding me for breaking the law (I wasn't) and killing my dog (I wasn't even stressing her) when there was quite clearly no problem at all. 

I would have had to be in that grocery store for hours for there to have been any problem at all. (I was in for 10 minutes, tops.)

If the hour had been later, the temperature higher (it was under 60 degrees, with a cool breeze) or the dog in distress ... the situation would have been clearly different. And I hope someone would have acted on behalf of my dog. After all, there is always a remote possibility  that I could have had a heart attack in the store and been removed by ambulance to the hospital, without anyone knowing I'd left my dog in the car outside.

Not likely, but possible. 

What my problem was that some people assume a dog in the car is always at risk. They're not. My dogs are out with me a lot (including some coast-to-coast trips) and in 30 years I can assure you they have NEVER been at risk in a parked car.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would have &#8212; have done &#8212; the same. The animal was in distress. Anyone who cares would help. </p>
<p>My problem was someone upbraiding me for breaking the law (I wasn&#8217;t) and killing my dog (I wasn&#8217;t even stressing her) when there was quite clearly no problem at all. </p>
<p>I would have had to be in that grocery store for hours for there to have been any problem at all. (I was in for 10 minutes, tops.)</p>
<p>If the hour had been later, the temperature higher (it was under 60 degrees, with a cool breeze) or the dog in distress &#8230; the situation would have been clearly different. And I hope someone would have acted on behalf of my dog. After all, there is always a remote possibility  that I could have had a heart attack in the store and been removed by ambulance to the hospital, without anyone knowing I&#8217;d left my dog in the car outside.</p>
<p>Not likely, but possible. </p>
<p>What my problem was that some people assume a dog in the car is always at risk. They&#8217;re not. My dogs are out with me a lot (including some coast-to-coast trips) and in 30 years I can assure you they have NEVER been at risk in a parked car.</p>
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		<title>By: The OTHER Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/05/09/nanny-state-ninnies-and-a-little-common-sense/#comment-264849</link>
		<dc:creator>The OTHER Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 13:35:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=2470#comment-264849</guid>
		<description>Colorado Transplant - this is absolutely NOT meant as an attack.  But when I suggested you go read the link Marjorie posted, it was meant in all sincerity.  I actually found food for thought there myself.  The article covered things I hadn't necessarily thought of myself, or certainly not in such carefully documented detail.

I tend to get "lost in the numbers" myself, but here is one passage I found helpful:

"In general, the 'hot day rule' is 1°F rise per minute the car is parked.
5 minutes = 5°F rise
10 minutes = 10°F rise
...up to a (probable) maximum temperate value of 140°F
 
If the starting temperature of the car's interior is a cool, air conditioned 70°F; ten minutes later, even on the hottest day, the temperature is unlikely to be above 80°F. 
 
If, however, the car's interior is equal to that outdoors, even ten minutes could be quite uncomfortable for you or your dog.  If the starting temperature of the car's interior is 85°F; ten minutes later, it could be 95°F inside.  If you come back to your car at the 10 minute mark, you've just rescued your dog from almost certain injury, such as brain damage, had it gone on just a few minutes longer."

And later in the article:

"Do this simple experiment yourself....and.....be honest:

On a hot day, bring along a thermometer and park your car in direct sunlight.  Write down the time you parked your car, then record the temperature every five minutes. (If you don't actually write it down, you may fall victim to the very human flaw of exaggeration, over time.)  This real-world test will prove to you that yes, your car is too hot to be comfortable for your dog when it is hot and sunny, but no, it does not magically explode with heat in a few, short minutes."

I've never done this experiment, but being a person who works in a lab, the idea of collecting "real data" appeals to me, and I think I might just have to conduct this one this summer (sans dog, of course!).

The article goes on to state "When pointing fingers, few bother to record the temperature inside the vehicle" which takes on new relevance in light of the passages I've already made note of here.

Further down is the paragraph:

"One humane organization claimed that leaving dogs in hot cars '...results in hundreds of deaths each year.'  We contacted them to say we find this claim puzzling, in that we've been researching this issue for a while, and haven't found documentation for 'hundreds of deaths' since the invention of the automobile, much less 'hundreds of deaths' 'each year.'  At least that humane group had the good sense to correct that aspect of their web site.  Unfortunately, they haven't stopped promulgating hysteria about dogs in cars."

So once again we see an organization making claims of fact which they cannot support with data, and when challenged, they simply withdraw the statement without withdrawing from the unfounded campaign.  Don't you find this just a bit untrustworthy (and hauntingly familiar)?

Towards the end, the article concludes:

"Again, this is not about justifying putting dogs in needless jeopardy.  It is about fact and reason, and responsibility.  Just as dog owners are responsible for ethically caring for their dogs; those who accuse strangers of wrongdoing are responsible for being able to prove their claims."

If you read this paragraph carefully - and in light of the factually-based information presented in the article - maybe it will help you towards understanding what the posters here are getting at, and why they become so weary of being asked to modify or curtail their very reasonable and safe day-to-day activities just to mollify inaccurate public perceptions fed by the fear-mongering campaigns of overfunded "humane" organizations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Colorado Transplant - this is absolutely NOT meant as an attack.  But when I suggested you go read the link Marjorie posted, it was meant in all sincerity.  I actually found food for thought there myself.  The article covered things I hadn&#8217;t necessarily thought of myself, or certainly not in such carefully documented detail.</p>
<p>I tend to get &#8220;lost in the numbers&#8221; myself, but here is one passage I found helpful:</p>
<p>&#8220;In general, the &#8216;hot day rule&#8217; is 1°F rise per minute the car is parked.<br />
5 minutes = 5°F rise<br />
10 minutes = 10°F rise<br />
&#8230;up to a (probable) maximum temperate value of 140°F</p>
<p>If the starting temperature of the car&#8217;s interior is a cool, air conditioned 70°F; ten minutes later, even on the hottest day, the temperature is unlikely to be above 80°F. </p>
<p>If, however, the car&#8217;s interior is equal to that outdoors, even ten minutes could be quite uncomfortable for you or your dog.  If the starting temperature of the car&#8217;s interior is 85°F; ten minutes later, it could be 95°F inside.  If you come back to your car at the 10 minute mark, you&#8217;ve just rescued your dog from almost certain injury, such as brain damage, had it gone on just a few minutes longer.&#8221;</p>
<p>And later in the article:</p>
<p>&#8220;Do this simple experiment yourself&#8230;.and&#8230;..be honest:</p>
<p>On a hot day, bring along a thermometer and park your car in direct sunlight.  Write down the time you parked your car, then record the temperature every five minutes. (If you don&#8217;t actually write it down, you may fall victim to the very human flaw of exaggeration, over time.)  This real-world test will prove to you that yes, your car is too hot to be comfortable for your dog when it is hot and sunny, but no, it does not magically explode with heat in a few, short minutes.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never done this experiment, but being a person who works in a lab, the idea of collecting &#8220;real data&#8221; appeals to me, and I think I might just have to conduct this one this summer (sans dog, of course!).</p>
<p>The article goes on to state &#8220;When pointing fingers, few bother to record the temperature inside the vehicle&#8221; which takes on new relevance in light of the passages I&#8217;ve already made note of here.</p>
<p>Further down is the paragraph:</p>
<p>&#8220;One humane organization claimed that leaving dogs in hot cars &#8216;&#8230;results in hundreds of deaths each year.&#8217;  We contacted them to say we find this claim puzzling, in that we&#8217;ve been researching this issue for a while, and haven&#8217;t found documentation for &#8216;hundreds of deaths&#8217; since the invention of the automobile, much less &#8216;hundreds of deaths&#8217; &#8216;each year.&#8217;  At least that humane group had the good sense to correct that aspect of their web site.  Unfortunately, they haven&#8217;t stopped promulgating hysteria about dogs in cars.&#8221;</p>
<p>So once again we see an organization making claims of fact which they cannot support with data, and when challenged, they simply withdraw the statement without withdrawing from the unfounded campaign.  Don&#8217;t you find this just a bit untrustworthy (and hauntingly familiar)?</p>
<p>Towards the end, the article concludes:</p>
<p>&#8220;Again, this is not about justifying putting dogs in needless jeopardy.  It is about fact and reason, and responsibility.  Just as dog owners are responsible for ethically caring for their dogs; those who accuse strangers of wrongdoing are responsible for being able to prove their claims.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you read this paragraph carefully - and in light of the factually-based information presented in the article - maybe it will help you towards understanding what the posters here are getting at, and why they become so weary of being asked to modify or curtail their very reasonable and safe day-to-day activities just to mollify inaccurate public perceptions fed by the fear-mongering campaigns of overfunded &#8220;humane&#8221; organizations.</p>
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		<title>By: 2CatMom</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/05/09/nanny-state-ninnies-and-a-little-common-sense/#comment-264846</link>
		<dc:creator>2CatMom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 13:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=2470#comment-264846</guid>
		<description>I agree with the common sense approach - but sometimes one person's common sense is another person's over the top.

While a friend and I were on summer vacation in a lovely city in Oregon we noticed a small cat locked in a car panting. It wasn't real hot out, but the car was parked in full sun and not even a window was cracked.

We asked people in the nearby stores and in the park across the street if they were the owners. No takers. We were very concerned and flagged down a local policeman.  He was very nice but said he couldn't do anything as long as the cat didn't appear in imminent danger.  

By then a crowd had gathered, the cat was getting more listless and people were getting upset.  One observer volunteered to break a window.  The cop just sighed, said he really didn't want to have to arrest anyone for vandalism, got out his plastic door opener and opened the car door.  Someone brought a bowl of water, someone else brought a wet towel, the windows were cracked.  A few people wanted to take the cat, but the officer said that he would then have to arrest them for property theft.  He relocked the car and that was that. Oh - And a number of nasty notes were left on the windshield. 

Looking back, I think all parties handled this about as well as they could...but I still wonder what the idiot owner thought when he got back to his car. And do you think we went too far??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the common sense approach - but sometimes one person&#8217;s common sense is another person&#8217;s over the top.</p>
<p>While a friend and I were on summer vacation in a lovely city in Oregon we noticed a small cat locked in a car panting. It wasn&#8217;t real hot out, but the car was parked in full sun and not even a window was cracked.</p>
<p>We asked people in the nearby stores and in the park across the street if they were the owners. No takers. We were very concerned and flagged down a local policeman.  He was very nice but said he couldn&#8217;t do anything as long as the cat didn&#8217;t appear in imminent danger.  </p>
<p>By then a crowd had gathered, the cat was getting more listless and people were getting upset.  One observer volunteered to break a window.  The cop just sighed, said he really didn&#8217;t want to have to arrest anyone for vandalism, got out his plastic door opener and opened the car door.  Someone brought a bowl of water, someone else brought a wet towel, the windows were cracked.  A few people wanted to take the cat, but the officer said that he would then have to arrest them for property theft.  He relocked the car and that was that. Oh - And a number of nasty notes were left on the windshield. </p>
<p>Looking back, I think all parties handled this about as well as they could&#8230;but I still wonder what the idiot owner thought when he got back to his car. And do you think we went too far??</p>
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		<title>By: Colorado Transplant</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/05/09/nanny-state-ninnies-and-a-little-common-sense/#comment-264784</link>
		<dc:creator>Colorado Transplant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 11:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=2470#comment-264784</guid>
		<description>Gina, you saved my day, week, month, and beyond.

Thank you for your kind words.

I am not a crusader, but only want to alert those very small amount of individuals who are not as aware of the danger of a dog being overheated as practically all the bloggers here are.

Why do I bother risking the anger of people in the blog?  The answer is I do not want to see a dog in distress--he might not recover from the trauma.

I hate being attacked, but if I can save one dog's trauma, it is worth the stress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gina, you saved my day, week, month, and beyond.</p>
<p>Thank you for your kind words.</p>
<p>I am not a crusader, but only want to alert those very small amount of individuals who are not as aware of the danger of a dog being overheated as practically all the bloggers here are.</p>
<p>Why do I bother risking the anger of people in the blog?  The answer is I do not want to see a dog in distress&#8212;he might not recover from the trauma.</p>
<p>I hate being attacked, but if I can save one dog&#8217;s trauma, it is worth the stress.</p>
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		<title>By: Gina Spadafori</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/05/09/nanny-state-ninnies-and-a-little-common-sense/#comment-264605</link>
		<dc:creator>Gina Spadafori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 04:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=2470#comment-264605</guid>
		<description>Would it be possible to be nicer to Colorado Transplant, who is, after all, one of the regulars here and a very caring pet-lover? 

Discuss, sure. Attack, not so much. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would it be possible to be nicer to Colorado Transplant, who is, after all, one of the regulars here and a very caring pet-lover? </p>
<p>Discuss, sure. Attack, not so much. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: EmilyS</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/05/09/nanny-state-ninnies-and-a-little-common-sense/#comment-264557</link>
		<dc:creator>EmilyS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 03:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=2470#comment-264557</guid>
		<description>ok, Colorado Transplant:   go join dog thief Tammy Grimes in her crusade to limit dog ownership and freedom of choice.  You obviously fit her mentality... my way or the highway.

sheesh.

btw, Ft Collins has LOTS of problems with irresponsible dog owners.. include the students who allow their badly behaved (oh he's friendly) dogs to run off leash.  And the failure of the local shelters to work towards no-kill.  Why don't you address those kinds of REAL problems instead of things that are NOT problems?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ok, Colorado Transplant:   go join dog thief Tammy Grimes in her crusade to limit dog ownership and freedom of choice.  You obviously fit her mentality&#8230; my way or the highway.</p>
<p>sheesh.</p>
<p>btw, Ft Collins has LOTS of problems with irresponsible dog owners.. include the students who allow their badly behaved (oh he&#8217;s friendly) dogs to run off leash.  And the failure of the local shelters to work towards no-kill.  Why don&#8217;t you address those kinds of REAL problems instead of things that are NOT problems?</p>
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		<title>By: Lis</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/05/09/nanny-state-ninnies-and-a-little-common-sense/#comment-264434</link>
		<dc:creator>Lis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 23:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/?p=2470#comment-264434</guid>
		<description>On the rare occasions I've seen a dog left in a vehicle in conditions I thought were genuinely unsafe, I've flagged down mall or store security. They have some training, some tools, and some degree of legal authority, in the parking lot that's part of their employers' property. If the car &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt;have to be opened and the dog removed before the owners return, smashing the window is really not the ideal method for anyone involved.

(And in case anyone is wondering, yes, actually, mall and store security has been &lt;i&gt;very&lt;/i&gt; concerned and willing to act on these few occasions.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the rare occasions I&#8217;ve seen a dog left in a vehicle in conditions I thought were genuinely unsafe, I&#8217;ve flagged down mall or store security. They have some training, some tools, and some degree of legal authority, in the parking lot that&#8217;s part of their employers&#8217; property. If the car <i>does</i>have to be opened and the dog removed before the owners return, smashing the window is really not the ideal method for anyone involved.</p>
<p>(And in case anyone is wondering, yes, actually, mall and store security has been <i>very</i> concerned and willing to act on these few occasions.)</p>
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