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	<title>Comments on: Is Vick&#8217;s conviction a sign that we care more about pit bulls than people?</title>
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	<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/</link>
	<description>The Web blog of the Pet Connection, a pet-care feature syndicated internationally by Universal Press.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 00:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-194751</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2007 02:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-194751</guid>
		<description>Lis and Bernie, 

I don't want to turn this topic into one that discusses disparity of prison sentencing for first-time offenders on the basis of race. Not the place for it. However, let me point out that even quantitative meta-analyses have resulted in divergent conclusions that are all over the map. 

Regarding Gov. Arnold S and the contemplated early release of lowest tier prisoners: it's not simply a money issue. There are other mitigating circumstances that prevail. And no, CA does not pocket the money. We’re too busy indirectly supporting illegal aliens, hence the budget problem.

My experience with the African-American culture is that far too often those with lower levels of education can’t get beyond the racial divide and are unwilling/unable to make a personal, unbiased examination of the facts. 

My grandparents told their kids and their grandchildren:  Go to school and learn how to think AND stay out of trouble. I find it difficult to be compassionate towards those who won’t seize the opportunity for a free education. 

Oh, yes, Congo’s been home for several weeks now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lis and Bernie, </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to turn this topic into one that discusses disparity of prison sentencing for first-time offenders on the basis of race. Not the place for it. However, let me point out that even quantitative meta-analyses have resulted in divergent conclusions that are all over the map. </p>
<p>Regarding Gov. Arnold S and the contemplated early release of lowest tier prisoners: it&#8217;s not simply a money issue. There are other mitigating circumstances that prevail. And no, CA does not pocket the money. We’re too busy indirectly supporting illegal aliens, hence the budget problem.</p>
<p>My experience with the African-American culture is that far too often those with lower levels of education can’t get beyond the racial divide and are unwilling/unable to make a personal, unbiased examination of the facts. </p>
<p>My grandparents told their kids and their grandchildren:  Go to school and learn how to think AND stay out of trouble. I find it difficult to be compassionate towards those who won’t seize the opportunity for a free education. </p>
<p>Oh, yes, Congo’s been home for several weeks now.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard J. (Bernie) Starzewski</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-194298</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard J. (Bernie) Starzewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-194298</guid>
		<description>Lynn,
You said it yourself.  "You don't know..."
Yes, we dont know.
The fact that we are willing to paint entire classes of people with such a broad brush is the root of the problem.
When I go to the shelter and see these dogs, some of the begging, others angry and firghtened I think to myself, how can I save or contribute to the savings of each of them, even the billigerent ones.

When I or any of us see people being carted off to prison do we have the same sentiments?
Do we think that but for a little effort on our parts that human going to that cell might have a better life?

Yes, people make choices.  But like Congo the dog those choices are within the confines of what we have been taught.  He is what his owner and environment made him and he acted accordingly.  He is in prison for that.

I noted that Gov. Arnold S. is considering releaseing 20,000 non-violent prisoners to solve the budget crisis in CA.  Whether thats a good idea or not will depend greatly on what kind of home these "dawgs" go to and what awaits them on the outside.  If the State just pockets the savings I suspect it will go badly.  But who among us would take a hard to place dog from a shelter without investing in training?

In this Christmas season I am reminded of the line from Dickens when the men come to Scrooge looking donations for the poor and he responds, "Are there no prisons?"  Both the prisons and the shelters are full.

In the blog above this one we see the photos of the sick and dying dog abandoned and neglected in what should have been his chance to get a new start. Shelters and pounds euthanize dogs because the people and officials responsible for their operation see no value in those animals and see "disposal" as their final solution.   I share the outrage.  But I refuse to compartmentalize those feelings to dogs alone. Neither prisons nor shelters should be final desinations if it can be avoided.

These people are expressing their outrage at those of us who to them, seem to value the dogs more than them.  There is a good deal of history behind that.  I am not advocating a retreat on the hopes we have for the better treatment of animals.  I am saying that we had better find ways to extend that same concern for our fellow man lest it (like Congo) come back to bite us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lynn,<br />
You said it yourself.  &#8220;You don&#8217;t know&#8230;&#8221;<br />
Yes, we dont know.<br />
The fact that we are willing to paint entire classes of people with such a broad brush is the root of the problem.<br />
When I go to the shelter and see these dogs, some of the begging, others angry and firghtened I think to myself, how can I save or contribute to the savings of each of them, even the billigerent ones.</p>
<p>When I or any of us see people being carted off to prison do we have the same sentiments?<br />
Do we think that but for a little effort on our parts that human going to that cell might have a better life?</p>
<p>Yes, people make choices.  But like Congo the dog those choices are within the confines of what we have been taught.  He is what his owner and environment made him and he acted accordingly.  He is in prison for that.</p>
<p>I noted that Gov. Arnold S. is considering releaseing 20,000 non-violent prisoners to solve the budget crisis in CA.  Whether thats a good idea or not will depend greatly on what kind of home these &#8220;dawgs&#8221; go to and what awaits them on the outside.  If the State just pockets the savings I suspect it will go badly.  But who among us would take a hard to place dog from a shelter without investing in training?</p>
<p>In this Christmas season I am reminded of the line from Dickens when the men come to Scrooge looking donations for the poor and he responds, &#8220;Are there no prisons?&#8221;  Both the prisons and the shelters are full.</p>
<p>In the blog above this one we see the photos of the sick and dying dog abandoned and neglected in what should have been his chance to get a new start. Shelters and pounds euthanize dogs because the people and officials responsible for their operation see no value in those animals and see &#8220;disposal&#8221; as their final solution.   I share the outrage.  But I refuse to compartmentalize those feelings to dogs alone. Neither prisons nor shelters should be final desinations if it can be avoided.</p>
<p>These people are expressing their outrage at those of us who to them, seem to value the dogs more than them.  There is a good deal of history behind that.  I am not advocating a retreat on the hopes we have for the better treatment of animals.  I am saying that we had better find ways to extend that same concern for our fellow man lest it (like Congo) come back to bite us.</p>
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		<title>By: Lis</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-194289</link>
		<dc:creator>Lis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-194289</guid>
		<description>Lynn, no, we do in fact know that young black with no priors are going to prison for significant terms, for relatively minor offenses that young white men with a similar lack of priors are getting fines, probation, or much shorter terms for. This is a fact, not open to debate, and it's a big factor in black resentment.

I just don't agree that it means we shouldn't be protecting the dogs and cats, who aren't responsible (or descended from those responsible) for the history of racism in this country. Or that we shouldn't punish Michael Vick, who was in fact one of the privileged in this society, and if he and his business managers aren't complete idiots, will still be living a very comfortable life indeed when he gets out, for his abuse and torture of dogs, for years, on a large scale.

A non-trivial point, for me, is that even if you buy the arguments about cultural differences and the different way dogs and dog-fighting are regarded, Michael Vick is &lt;i&gt;still&lt;/i&gt; a sick guy. Pretend for a moment that you don't think that dog fighting is abusive in itself, and you're still left with the fact that Vick did things most professional dog fighters wouldn't do--drown, electrocute, hang, or beat to death losing dogs, rather than just shoot them, or kill them by lethal injection, either of which would have been quicker and easier &lt;i&gt;for the person doing the job&lt;/i&gt;.

This is one seriously sick guy, and a refusal to look past his skin color to what he did is seriously short-sighted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lynn, no, we do in fact know that young black with no priors are going to prison for significant terms, for relatively minor offenses that young white men with a similar lack of priors are getting fines, probation, or much shorter terms for. This is a fact, not open to debate, and it&#8217;s a big factor in black resentment.</p>
<p>I just don&#8217;t agree that it means we shouldn&#8217;t be protecting the dogs and cats, who aren&#8217;t responsible (or descended from those responsible) for the history of racism in this country. Or that we shouldn&#8217;t punish Michael Vick, who was in fact one of the privileged in this society, and if he and his business managers aren&#8217;t complete idiots, will still be living a very comfortable life indeed when he gets out, for his abuse and torture of dogs, for years, on a large scale.</p>
<p>A non-trivial point, for me, is that even if you buy the arguments about cultural differences and the different way dogs and dog-fighting are regarded, Michael Vick is <i>still</i> a sick guy. Pretend for a moment that you don&#8217;t think that dog fighting is abusive in itself, and you&#8217;re still left with the fact that Vick did things most professional dog fighters wouldn&#8217;t do&#8212;drown, electrocute, hang, or beat to death losing dogs, rather than just shoot them, or kill them by lethal injection, either of which would have been quicker and easier <i>for the person doing the job</i>.</p>
<p>This is one seriously sick guy, and a refusal to look past his skin color to what he did is seriously short-sighted.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193871</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 04:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193871</guid>
		<description>Bernie, I'm not sure that the following is worth considering:

"If you were watching half of the young men you know go to prison for long terms for relatively minor charges thar hurt no one but themselves would you not eventually become resentful of the dogs?"

What you don't know is how many times each of the prisoners had been in jail before. [More past offenses, longer sentences for smaller crimes.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bernie, I&#8217;m not sure that the following is worth considering:</p>
<p>&#8220;If you were watching half of the young men you know go to prison for long terms for relatively minor charges thar hurt no one but themselves would you not eventually become resentful of the dogs?&#8221;</p>
<p>What you don&#8217;t know is how many times each of the prisoners had been in jail before. [More past offenses, longer sentences for smaller crimes.]</p>
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		<title>By: catmom5</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193870</link>
		<dc:creator>catmom5</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 04:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193870</guid>
		<description>I have to admit that my sympathy goes to the INNOCENTS who depend on others for their food, shelter and protection ~ that would be the children and the animals. 

Black, white, purple or orange ~ people make choices and have to live with the consequences of those choices. If there are things that are wrong, then take some action to right the wrongs. But for crying out loud, just yelling "victim" will not make things any different. 

I will continue to protect the animals and children because, for some of them, there is no one else. 

Michael Vick is a pitiful excuse for a human being and I don't care what his excuses are. He deliberately and willfully tortured and killed innocents for his own entertainment. That has not a thing to do with the color of his skin, but the color of his soul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to admit that my sympathy goes to the INNOCENTS who depend on others for their food, shelter and protection ~ that would be the children and the animals. </p>
<p>Black, white, purple or orange ~ people make choices and have to live with the consequences of those choices. If there are things that are wrong, then take some action to right the wrongs. But for crying out loud, just yelling &#8220;victim&#8221; will not make things any different. </p>
<p>I will continue to protect the animals and children because, for some of them, there is no one else. </p>
<p>Michael Vick is a pitiful excuse for a human being and I don&#8217;t care what his excuses are. He deliberately and willfully tortured and killed innocents for his own entertainment. That has not a thing to do with the color of his skin, but the color of his soul.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard J. (Bernie) Starzewski</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193849</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard J. (Bernie) Starzewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 03:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193849</guid>
		<description>Having lived in Chicago and points south of that I can tell you  that that town is as racist as it comes.  You cant have a convesation with any of the people I know down there without the N word coming up all the time.  Its N this and N that and I got a special N gun just in case they come for me at home.

Ive also been wathing the prison industry rise and rise here in Wis. and Ive noticed one thing.  The number of young blacks going to prison is substantially higher than whites for the same crimes.

I will not defend Vick.  It was wrong and unlike some kid who gets sent up the river for possession of cocaine or crack he had every reason NOT to do something stupid as as wilfully vicious as he did.

But, consider this.  If you were watching half of the young men you know go to prison for long terms for relatively minor charges thar hurt no one but themselves would you not eventually become resentful of the dogs?

Think about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having lived in Chicago and points south of that I can tell you  that that town is as racist as it comes.  You cant have a convesation with any of the people I know down there without the N word coming up all the time.  Its N this and N that and I got a special N gun just in case they come for me at home.</p>
<p>Ive also been wathing the prison industry rise and rise here in Wis. and Ive noticed one thing.  The number of young blacks going to prison is substantially higher than whites for the same crimes.</p>
<p>I will not defend Vick.  It was wrong and unlike some kid who gets sent up the river for possession of cocaine or crack he had every reason NOT to do something stupid as as wilfully vicious as he did.</p>
<p>But, consider this.  If you were watching half of the young men you know go to prison for long terms for relatively minor charges thar hurt no one but themselves would you not eventually become resentful of the dogs?</p>
<p>Think about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Carol</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193584</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193584</guid>
		<description>I declined to read the balance of the article. Why bother?  More of the same garbage.  You love your pet i.e. you don't love people.  There is a great leap in logic here that anyone can see.  One would think that people who proclaimed loudly against this type of criminal behavior would be applauded and not villified.  Race and sex don't enter into every situation.  The man broke the law and has been punished.  The end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I declined to read the balance of the article. Why bother?  More of the same garbage.  You love your pet i.e. you don&#8217;t love people.  There is a great leap in logic here that anyone can see.  One would think that people who proclaimed loudly against this type of criminal behavior would be applauded and not villified.  Race and sex don&#8217;t enter into every situation.  The man broke the law and has been punished.  The end.</p>
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		<title>By: Lilly and Lucy's mom</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193557</link>
		<dc:creator>Lilly and Lucy's mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 21:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193557</guid>
		<description>Personally I think people are more apt to react to the abuse of an animal that has no say for itself. The same is true for babies and children that are abused.

I have always believed in equality of people and that extends to when someone does something heinous like Michael Vick did.  Black or white his behavior was inexcusable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally I think people are more apt to react to the abuse of an animal that has no say for itself. The same is true for babies and children that are abused.</p>
<p>I have always believed in equality of people and that extends to when someone does something heinous like Michael Vick did.  Black or white his behavior was inexcusable.</p>
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		<title>By: dog Training Toronto</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193517</link>
		<dc:creator>dog Training Toronto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193517</guid>
		<description>I think people are more caring for dogs, no doubt, I mean we feed them, bathe them and pick up after them. And we hate when a dog is killed in a movie, but if people die in a movie even though it's fake we get sad and upset if the dog dies. 

Thanks for the dog tips on your blog</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think people are more caring for dogs, no doubt, I mean we feed them, bathe them and pick up after them. And we hate when a dog is killed in a movie, but if people die in a movie even though it&#8217;s fake we get sad and upset if the dog dies. </p>
<p>Thanks for the dog tips on your blog</p>
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		<title>By: EmilyS</title>
		<link>http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193512</link>
		<dc:creator>EmilyS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2007/12/20/is-vicks-conviction-a-sign-that-we-care-more-about-pit-bulls-than-people/#comment-193512</guid>
		<description>well, we all know what the press really cares about it neither black people nor dogfighting victims.  What it cares about is missing white girls
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome)
and Britney Spears, who probably should go  missing for awhile.
(sarcasm mode off)

There is no limit to compassion, and 
compassion for animals does not preclude compassion for people

it's NO ONE's business how people chose to express their compassion.
(like the overseas pet thing you blogged about). 

Every example of compassion should be celebrated, not mocked or bemoaned</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, we all know what the press really cares about it neither black people nor dogfighting victims.  What it cares about is missing white girls<br />
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome)<br />
and Britney Spears, who probably should go  missing for awhile.<br />
(sarcasm mode off)</p>
<p>There is no limit to compassion, and<br />
compassion for animals does not preclude compassion for people</p>
<p>it&#8217;s NO ONE&#8217;s business how people chose to express their compassion.<br />
(like the overseas pet thing you blogged about). </p>
<p>Every example of compassion should be celebrated, not mocked or bemoaned</p>
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