Pet food recall: Liveblogging 5/10 FDA/USDA press conference
By Christie Keith
May 10, 2007
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I’ll be liveblogging today’s FDA/USDA/CBP (Customs and Border Protection) joint media telebriefing today, which starts at 2 PM Eastern Time. Present today will be:
* David Acheson, M.D., assistant commissioner for food protection, Office of the Commissioner, FDA
* Kenneth Petersen, D.V.M., M.P.H., assistant administrator for field operations, Food Safety and Inspection Service, USDA
* Stephen Sundlof, D.V.M., Ph.D., director, Center for Veterinary Medicine, FDA
* Robert Ali, deputy assistant commissioner for public affairs, Office of the Commissioner, FDA
* Michael Rogers, director, Division of Field Investigations, Office of Regulatory Affairs, FDA
Usual disclaimers: I’m doing this live, there will be typos, only things in quotation marks are direct quotes, the rest is a paraphrase. We’ll post the link to the actual transcript when it’s ready, usually within 24-48 hours.
Our musical interlude this morning is the original version of “Tracks of My Tears” by Smokey Robinson and the Miracles.
Music has now changed to Bette Midler’s “The Rose.”
2:06 PM Eastern time, we’re now listening to Don McLean’s (sp?) “Starry, Starry Night.”
2:09 PM ET and we begin.
Hosted by Robert Ali FDA media relations.
Speakers will be David Acheson (FDA) and Kenneth Petersen (USDA).
Acheson: Today he’ll update on three areas.
1. Contaminated fish feed
2. Sampling and testing
3. Update on China investigation
Since began in March, have been conducting investigation that started with melamine contaminated pet food. Led places not expected. Gone where leads have taken it. Have discussed information publicly as soon as they knew it and it was validated. It’s not in the public’s interest to share unvalidated information, but we realize this often leaves unanswered questions.
Melamine was found in fish feed manufactured in Canada. Fish feeding is being recalled. One hatchery Marion Falls Hatchery in Oregon had the contaminated feed. Was a starter diet for juvenile salmon and trout.
Feed was manufactered under BioOregon Label out of Longview, WA.
That same lot was sent to several other hatcheries in Oregon. He named them but spoke to fast for me to get it. Company is offereing replace feed.
Working to determine scope, and to see if any of the fish fed the contaminated feed were released to the environment or the market.
Based on the risk assessment, humans who may have eaten fish “face a very low health risk.”
Constant communication with FWS, Canandian gov’t, etc.
Turning now to discuss second area, what is ongoing with sampling.
Focus on imports. Summarize where we currently are.
All vegetable protein products imported or shipped from China cannot enter the country unless tested for melamine, cyanuric acid, or other melamine-related compounds. Also have sampling assignment for pet food from China. Also will begin soon to sample animal feed. Including fish feed.
Domestic assignments are underway. Visiting manufacturers and processors in the US who use protein concentrates, obtaining samples, testing for melamine and related compounds, raising safety awareness with them, and doing targeted sampling of finished food products. Targeted at pet food, animal food, and human food.
Finally, brief summary on China.
Team has been in China since April 30. AQSIQ has been briefed on results of investigation. Cooperation between investigatoin and Chinese authorities. Has visited “both of the firms” involved. Labs are testing samples from “both of the firms.” Officials of the firms have been detained.
Investigation continues. Discussions continue on food protection.
Now Kenneth Petersen, USDA.
The same group of scientists who participated in the human health risk assessment are working on an animal exposure assessment. To assess how levels will dissipate from animal’s body over time. Not complete. Nor is test for melamine in swine muscle meat. Pending more data, situation for USDA remains the same.
Swine and poultry remain under control on the farms we have previously noted in these calls.
Open to questions.
[Continued after the jump]
CNN: Asking about redacted contaminant on FDA website (Note: as mentioned by Itchmo last night!)
Acheson: “It’s redacted for a reason.” Cannot answer.
Michael Rogers: That’s information we don’t want to disclose. Also about the variety of tests we intend to engage in.
Reporter: Small family farms in Utah are anxiously awaiting news about their held hogs. Contaminated feed is sitting in landfill. Swine are beyond their prime.
Petersen: Validated test for swine meat is important. Need it for exposure assessment. Not just Utah but also elsewhere. We hope it’s ready soon. Want scientists to have the time to make the appropriate judgment. Until due diligence is completed, I cannot give you a timeline. I think it will be soon. We certainly understand the economic impact and difficulty this is creating for these farmers. We are certainly sensitive to that. They have been contacted regarding Sect 32 funds to restore their purchasing power. There will be at least a safe harbor for their market share. Soon is the best I can do.
Reporter: Can you describe the nature of the test regarding if the meat is tainted or not?
Petersen: Sophisticated analytic method. Laboratories, FERN, doing testing. Want to reach agreement this is the right test.
Steve Dale: This wasn’t real protein if it was wheat flour. May have been going on a long time. Were our pets, esp cats, not getting enough protein. Or were we at least paying for something we weren’t getting. Over time, did this lack of protein impact our dog or cat’s health?
Dr. Sundloff: That’s a reasonable point to raise. All the pets that are commercially available are nutritionally balanced to meet the needs of dogs and cats. Too little protein can make problems. In terms of duration, RPC entered August 2006, wheat gluten in Nov 2006, so has not been a long time, at least for these two companies. They are the only two companies “we are aware of” that sold contaminated ingredients. If it’s not longstanding, impact was the immediate one. At this point, not aware of any nutritional deficiencies due to substitution of a less than potent protein supplement into the pet food.
Lynn Terry, The Oregonian: In terms of animal and fish feed. How expensive will that be? You’re going to be testing imports from China. But how can the two agencies possibly police all this?
Acheson: Regarding domestic surveillance assignment is targeted on raising awareness. Focused on protein concentrates. Clearly we cant’ get to everyone in the first few days. Keep assignment rolling long enough to get to everyone as quickly as we can with the resources we have. We’re looking for melamine and related compounds in areas where we don’t know there is a problem. We started where we KNEW there was a problem – pet food, then chicken feed, then fish. We’re trying to be proactive. That’s the issue on the assignment.
In terms of products coming into the US, products from China that go to another country then into the US, we do the paperwork associated with that and are trying to look into that, and try to treat them the same.
With respect to the third arm, which is finished products that might have been turned into food and then shipped into the US, we’ll be getting more into that. Right now the focus has been on the areas of maximum concern, the risk we know is there.
Rogers: The countrywide import alert is for bulk vegetable proteins from China. All those shipments have 100 percent sampling. Importer must demonstrate not contaminated – “some verification” is done by the Agency. (???)
We are also looking at bulk shipments from other sources, to see if those are ultimately from China. “Some of those” “will be sampled.”
Oregonian: You repeatedly said there is no harm to humans even though hogs did get to dinner tables. No results were ever released about concentrations of melamine and/of cyanuric acid. Very little scientific date. How can you say it’s safe?
Acheson: Risk assessment was using animal exposure data. You’re correct, there’s been no studies ever done on melamine to humans. One has to extrapolate. That’s standard in toxicology.
There is always some level of uncertainty. Assessment usually includes a safety factor. They do take that into account. We know at what level melamine causes a problem in a rat. “It’s orders of magnitude higher than anything we have ever seen in any of these products.” (MY THOUGHT: Then why did pets get sick and die?)
In doing the risk assessment, they put it all into account. You end up with an over two thousand fold safety factor between what you may find in the muscle and what could be of risk to the human.
As to the compounds together. Pure melamine, no problem until very high levels. When you put together with cyanuric acid, form crystals in kidneys. That’s what we believe in the scenario in the pets. Pets received a much higher level than humans ever would from consuming hogs and poultry.
This is a scientific process. We have a lot of confidence that consumers can be “reassured that eating muscle meat from these animals is not going to pose a threat.”
Andrew Bridges, AP: Can you point to any studies in any species on the combination of these compounds?
Acheson: Nothing published. Additive, rather than synergistic. One and one is two, not five. All indications are, and I agree this is limited, that this is an additive phenomenon. Even if synergism were likely to occur, it’s not likely to increase risk more than (missed).
AP: Have you looked at how more or less soluble wheat flour is than wheat gluten? Could that have led to higher concentrtaions in pet food?
Acheson: Doesn’t know if companies looked at that. Companies go through quality control. If it doesn’t work, they’d know, so I can only assume that the melamine was not there in high enough quantities to interfere with the performance of the product.
Washington Post: Regarding domestic assignment, said you’d started testing some human food and animal feed products. Have you had any positive tests yet? Also, second distributor in US, in IL, that has accepted RPC contaminated with melamine from China? Is it RPC? Was it mislabled?
Acheson: We do have samples in the lab, have found nothing positive other than the ones we were already aware of.
FDA: Have analyzed 850 products. More than 500 tested positive, relating to 92 lots. “We have no knowledge to suggest any contaminated bulk products were shipped directly to firms that manufacture products for humans.” Can’t give a split on the numbers.
WaPo: Second imported stream of labeled RPC. Rep. DeLauro says a company in IL issued a recall.
Acheson: Some of our testing has indicated that some of the labeled RPC was not RPC, it was wheat flour. Some of the RPC we tested was mislabled. As far as IL, we dont’ have anything more to tell you on that.
Rogers: Yes, there was a second company in IL. But all positive samples are from the same two sources in China, including the one in IL.
Acheson: We can anticipate that other things will come to light as we follow this. EVERYTHING is still ultimately linking back to the same two companies in China. That’s an important point. But we are looking outside that scope and nothing has come up.
Elizabeth Weise, USA Today: Said she likes the new music playing while on hold.
Why haven’t we seen more of this? Was it really only these two companies?
Acheson: You’re not the first to ask that. Without being able to turn time back, we can’t know. It never came to light before. Possibly because melamine at low doses is “not problematic.” It does appear to form crystals mixed with other compounds. Speculates maybe those two shipments had more cyanuric acid or other compounds. Yes, it’s possible it’s been going on longer.
EW: Percentage of vegetable protein concentrate we use in the US?
Acheson: Does not know.
Reuters: How many states, what kind of tonnage, of fish meal? Only one manufacturer?
Rogers: A firm Skirretting (sp?) “went public” and notified customers. Our investigation related to RPC shipped to a manufacturer in Canda, made a pre-mix, sold it to Skirretting, has hundreds of customers. Only two are commercial manufacterers. Is notifying companies that they know rec’d suspect product, and some who may have. Firms were told to return product. The two commercial facilities, FDA will be visiting those.
Reuters: How big are those facilities and where are they?
Rogers: I don’t know size. As far as location, we believe they received it. This came to light yesterday. We don’t know they used it or what products it may have been used. So at this point we won’t disclose that.
Acheson: We are sharing everything we know that we believe is validated. It would be inappropriate to share that at this point.
Reporter: There are several hatcheries in WA that use that product. What are you telling them to do as far as fish that were fed suspect product, and what are your concerns about fish released into the wild?
Acheson: Fish meal and fish feed are different. This is fish FEED, not fish MEAL. Technical point. What the hatcheries are doing, that’s part of the investigation and what it will tell us. As to whether some of these may have been released into the wild and what the impact, as we learn more about the toxicology, the longterm bioaccumulation in fish will be determined. Those experiments aren’t done, this is a brand new issue. We did include fish in the risk assessment, and it suggests risks to humans is very low.
Reporter: What I asked is what you told the hatcheries to do? Hold the fish?
Acheson: If they used the feed, we’re telling them to stop using it. We’re trying to get to these places so we can give them appropriate advice.
David Barbosa, NY Times: What are officials finding in China? Have they interviewed the producers, learned anything more than what you’ve said?
Walter Batts: Getting very good cooperation. Visited two facilities. Nothing to be found. Currently are not operating. The officials are being detained. Our investigators have not interviewed them.
NY Times: If they are getting cooperation, why aren’t they getting access to the officials and testing the facilities?
Batts: There is nothing to be seen at the facilities. Closed down, machinery dismantled. Nothing to get access to. Chinese did collect samples before we got there. Are being analyzed by an independent laboratory.
Abigail Goldman, LA Times: Slowly spell the fish companies that got the contaminated fish feed. In general, is it true that fish bioaccumulate contaminants more than other animals?
Acheson: Names, I’ll refer you to the press release from Oregon Fish and Wildlife.
Sundoloff: Bioaccumulation in aquatic systems is fat soluble compounds that accumulate up the food chains. Food chains are long, get cumulative effect concentrated in top carnivores. Melamine is very water soluble and is excreted quickly. That is in fact why it causes so many kidney problems. We would not exect melamine to bioaccumulate in aquatic systems.
Kansas City Star: What gluten and wheat flour dont’ look anything alike.
Acheson: Have to get back to you. Can only assume it’s not an obvious difference. It was our forensic chemistry center that measured starch levels.
This may not have been pure wheat flour. In truth, we don’t know exactly what it is. The melamine may have changed it. If this product looked different then the manufacturers as part of quality control would have noticed that. It was definitely mis-labeled, but I think it was more complex than just wheat flour plus melamine.
Bloomberg News: Passes.
CBS News affiliate in TX: Facility in OR, and two others? Three suspicious?
Rogers: No. In discussions with the firm, we learned they have 198 domestic companies. A finished feed product that tested positive in OR. In tracing forward, we identified 198 facilities in the US that may have rec’d feed containing suspect lot. Firm said they would notify those companies. The number two is the two COMMERCIAL manufacturers that may, or may not, have received contaminated feed. We will be visiting them.
CBS: Is there an updated number on pet deaths?
Response, not sure who: No more. 18,000 calls rec’d. Have entered a number and continue to enter. Quick review that allege animal death suggest as many as 50 percent allege an animal death. Agency will be evaluating the data and certainly will come out with a characterization of the data.
Chicago Tribune: Can confirm an IL company that rec’d contaminated RPC and distributed it?
Rogers: Yes.
Tribune: Can you name it?
Rogers: These press conferences are designed to alert the public, but our investigative process involves determining scope and if products were distributed. We are in discussions with these firms and if it’s determined a recall is necessary, the firms will say that and we’ll put it on our website.
Reporter: Clarifying how many calls and animal deaths.
Reply: Has rec’d 18,000 calls alleging animal illness or death. Quick review suggests as many as 50 percent MAY allege animal death. Final numbers is longer term process.
Reporter: When will investigators come back from China?
Batts: Within next week.
ABC News: Said you were happy with cooperation in China. You can’t interview people detained, nothing at the plants. So what is China cooperating on? Has anyone tested melamine on live animals.
Batts: They were very cooperative with the visas. Not sure where that information came of. This was taken care of within a day, in one case an hour. There was no problem with visas.
The agency in China, AQSIQ, has limited authority over the firms. It has hampered what they were able to do before we arrived on site. They carried out an extensive investigation before we got there. We are satisfied they shared with us documents they obtained and anything they found. The fact the companies shut down their facilities is just a fact and not to be blamed on lack of cooperation by Chinese authorities.
ABC News: Testing of melamine and cyanuric acid testing on live animals anywhere now? Or remains of animals who ate the bad pet food?
Petersen: I’m not aware, but researchers at Universities may be working on something.
Acheson: We have initiated discussions with our researchers to begin to map out what studies might get some of these issues reviewed. They are valid but right now key focus is on developing assays so we can determine degree of safety of food supply.
NPR: Regarding import alert on vegetable protein, what volume is involved? Is FDA testing these imports, if not who is, and what have results shown so far?
Acheson: Import alert is 100 percent. Stopping EVERY vegetable protein concentrate from China. To get it released, company has to come to us with validated tests, paperwork, assurances, that this material is okay, free of melamine and other compounds. Sampling assignment is different. We have 100 percent sampling assignment on pet food. That means WE take the samples and process them in our labs. (NOTE: I want to follow up on this.)
NPR: Volume coming in?
Response: Responded but I missed it.
Sundloff: Wants to clarify on number of pet deaths. I don’t want to leave the misimpression that FDA thinks there are 9000 pet deaths. We have rec’d over 18,000 calls. Around 8,000 have been entered in. Of those, approx half report deaths. But a lot of these, in fact few if any, have been substantiated. A lot were from “concerned and distraught pet owners.” We are working with AVMA and diagnosticians, doing autopsy work on these pets, and with some of the larger pet hospitals like Banfield, to collate all the reports, develop criteria to determine if pet food was cause of death, and to come up with what we believe was the true scope. Will probably be the fall before we have that.
Dorothy Griffith, Sacramento Bee: Fish meal or fish feed?
Acheson: Product is fish FEED. I apologize if I got my nomenclature muddled up. It is all FISH FEED. Food fed to fish. Fish meal is a product of rendering fish and has a different purpose. If I said fish meal, I apologize. It is fish feed.
Conference ends.
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Christie - how’s your head? My head hurts just thinking about what they’ll make up this time.
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:08 am
*Cracks open brand new bottle of tequila. Looks around to see who is joining me this time*
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:10 am
Ohhh! I’m in!!!
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:11 am
‘Course it DID take me an entire day to get over the last hangover Kim caused. Heh.
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:11 am
LOL Ally - I was on the floor all day yesterday.
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:13 am
I was just at the grocery store and couldn’t figure out why I was buying limes - NOW I know. ;-)
*Slices limes for everyone. Passes salt shaker.*
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:14 am
Booze at the ready and just a hint , keep a laundry basket full of rolled up socks by your desk, the urge to throw things may strike. Balled up socks are fun for the cats and do very little damage, compared to ,say, the desk organizer that, oddly, flew across the room during a previous FDA media event.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 11:16 am
LOL E! (Have tossed many a desk item in my lifetime…)
Wait - did they just say - BEGIN to sample animal feed?????
*looks quickly around for dirty socks from this morning*
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:18 am
who’s doing the testing on the vegetable protein?
also, pet food from China? whose is that?
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 11:18 am
Mighty sweet of you Kim. Thanks! :)
*takes a lime & a swig*
*passes bottle and lime/salt hostess tray to E. *
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:18 am
and if there’s time to ask questions… can they comment on the pregnant woman/melamine alert? and the literature from 1966?
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 11:20 am
Note: To minimize head-exploding drink *before* reading what Christie’s typing.
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:21 am
Nestle’s china pet food?
Comment by Ann H. — May 10, 2007 @ 11:21 am
I thought the “one firm” they’re investigating was bulldozed by the former owner, now prisoner, soon to be plasticized organ donor.
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 11:22 am
“about redacted contaminant on FDA website”
???
what’s that?
*reaches for limes*
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 11:23 am
“Team has been in China since April 30….Cooperation between investigatoin and Chinese authorities. Has visited “both of the firms” involved.”
But they sure didn’t get a chance to visit the factory that was BULLDOZED in the wee hours of the night? Just *before* the Chinese decided to “cooperate”?
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:24 am
Information we don’t want to disclose???
Who has the tequila? Pass it please!
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:24 am
Never mind.
*Opens another bottle*
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:24 am
I need to buy new boots! My old ones seem to have gotten way too dirty lately.
Comment by Therese — May 10, 2007 @ 11:24 am
cynthia - sorry cross posting with you. was too busy passing the hostess tray…
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:25 am
Takes a swig, and the desk organizer I threw against the wall? It had a calculator that just disintegrated on impact and little numbers flew everywhere.
When my husband arrived home after work , he sat on one that I had missed , looked at my desk and the mark on the wall and rather mildly asked ” Was it an FDA media event again, or did Duane say something, hon?”.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 11:25 am
Ooo how mysterious and 007 they are!
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 11:26 am
ROFLMAO E…
You’re better than tequila!
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:26 am
sorry Petersen. Analytical chemistry in a forensic capacity is not that big of a deal. Do they think we’re all uneducated, non-professional dopes?
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 11:29 am
That’s how they’ve treated us from the beginning, why should they change?
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:30 am
great minds think alike Ally
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 11:31 am
It is nearly 80 degrees here and mid afternoon. I brought the jello shots-
In every color.
Nancy
Comment by nancy — May 10, 2007 @ 11:32 am
PETERSEN, USDA: “…poultry remain under control on the farms we have previously noted in these calls.”
Wait, wait….WAIT. Is he talkin’ about the same 20,000,000 mela-chickens the USDA cleared for take-off on 5/7/07:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/.....9520070507
???
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:32 am
Holy crap. Look at this document - anything that is a & or # is where information has been deleted/redacted.
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/protsurv.html
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:33 am
Cynthia - LOL! or two minds feeling the effects of ta-killya….;)
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:33 am
I have a terrible confession to make, I have never had a jello shot, plan to have a different answer tomorrow, set em up, rainbow me!
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 11:33 am
re: Comment by Lola
This sounds more pessimistic than my point of view. The US import law already specifies that we can only import agricultural products from countries with equivalent safety and environmental standards — which clearly isn’t true of China (or India, for that matter). The FDA and Customs Agency are both already complicit in breaking this law, so I’m not sure why anybody thinks more restrictions on imports are going to change anything. THAT’S a pipe dream!
South Africa has already banned Chinese grain imports. Louisiana and Mississippi have banned catfish from Vietnam and China. And China banned US beef because of a single instance of mad cow.
It’s time for us all to stop whining, tighten our belts, and get ready for a trade war. I don’t care how “in debt” we are to China. Someone tried to kill my cat last week, and his life (and my own) have no monetary value. Get ready for a “Tea Party”!
Comment by Palomino — May 10, 2007 @ 11:33 am
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:33 am
Anyone have a sceen grab of the original for comparison?
Holy crap Batman is right.
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:34 am
What are they hiding???!!!
*guzzles tequila*
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:35 am
WHY do we still import from China when there are farmers here in the USA???????????????? Am I totally missing something????
Comment by Therese — May 10, 2007 @ 11:35 am
Palomino - may I ask a wee favor? I think you’ve posted that same post in about 4 different threads here. We hear ya!
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:35 am
“One has to extrapolate….” Extrapolate this, bucko!
Kim, tequila, please…..
Comment by JanC — May 10, 2007 @ 11:36 am
“What are they hiding???!!!”
What AREN’T they hiding?!!
Kim - is the worm still left in the bottle?
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:36 am
fRICK & fRACK need to ask the Chinese doctors what happens to humans…
Comment by Ann H. — May 10, 2007 @ 11:36 am
Since we, and our pets, have no value, there is a lesson here for our government and the pet industry.
Those with nothing to lose make very effective enemies and often triumph.
Learn it the hard way if you must, but learn it you will.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 11:37 am
Rogers: The countrywide import alert is for bulk vegetable proteins from China. All those shipments have 100 percent sampling. Importer must demonstrate not contaminated - “some verification” is done by the Agency. (???)
So in other words Rogers, nothings changed. Still taking the importer’s word for it. How can contamination be demonstrated if NO ONE IS LOOKING!!!????
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 11:37 am
The worm is all yours Ally
*passes Ally bottle #2*
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:37 am
I’ve got a few cases of tequila over here…enough for anybody who wants a big ole bottle!
Comment by Therese — May 10, 2007 @ 11:38 am
E. are you Yoda?
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 11:38 am
Kim - I do adore ya chica, I really do.
My leaps know no bounds.
*hic*
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:39 am
Cynthia, you kidding?
E. is Yoda’s sen-sai.
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:40 am
I’m on my way, Therese…..but I have to get the worm…..oh, yuk….
Comment by JanC — May 10, 2007 @ 11:40 am
On my way Therese!
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:40 am
…”and doing targeted sampling of finished food products.”
Can someone ask him if that’s still going to be only 1% tested?
Or have we moved on to the whopping 2%?
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:41 am
oh yum,, if it ain’t muscle meat, it’s going to pet food
Comment by Ann H. — May 10, 2007 @ 11:42 am
Ally - ready for another bottle? ;-)
(Ya know, I haven’t had tequila in real life for all of a week, that’s gonna change real quickly here…)
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:43 am
“Importer must demonstrate not contaminated “
who verifies that paperwork?
Comment by Donna — May 10, 2007 @ 11:44 am
You know…we’re all being silly here…there’s no reason to worry! The FDA put out that warning to the FDA employees saying it could be harmful to them. But they’re telling us (the general public) we don’t have to worry…so unless any of us work for the FDA we’re safe.
Comment by Therese — May 10, 2007 @ 11:45 am
Acheson: One and one is two, not five.
good boy!
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 11:45 am
Oh Sorry JanC, just now seeing your comment
*Passes tequila, limes and salt to JanC*
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:45 am
WHY do we still import from China when there are farmers here in the USA???????????????? Am I totally missing something????
Comment by Therese
what farmers? we have stripmalls.
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 11:46 am
Kim - thankees for the offer but I’m good. ;)
Can’t believe what I’m reading above so must be buzzed enough, for now yanno?
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:49 am
I have far too much respect for the earth to dump my little pile o poison (80 lbs.) in the bay, where do you guys think we SHOULD dump it?
How many of us have these bags and cans of poison?
We have it, we should USE it.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 11:50 am
Cynthia:
“what farmers? we have stripmalls.”
Bwahahahaha!!!
Oh gawd. I need a cannister of oxygen.
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:50 am
Doesn’t this contradict what he said on Tuesday?
“Some of our testing has indicated that some of the labeled RPC was not RPC, it was wheat flour. Some of the RPC we tested was mislabled.”
On Tuesday they said ALL RPC was wheat flour, right?
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:50 am
E. : “where do you guys think we SHOULD dump it?”
Umm……….front door of the FDA for starters maybe?
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:51 am
“Importer must demonstrate not contaminated ”
Hello? The importer didn’t even realize it was wheat flour instead of rice protein concentrate - never mind that it was toxic. Is this going to be a case of “Well it says so on the paperwork so we thought…”?
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 11:51 am
Oh duh….the strip malls…where we can buy Chines goods!! (slap me upside da haid!)
Comment by Therese — May 10, 2007 @ 11:52 am
Several tons of poisoned pet food, that would be harder a story to bury than postcards, don’t you think?
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 11:52 am
*breaks out popcorn and nuts to pass around*
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 11:52 am
i DARE somebody to get the tequila bottle with that worm wearing the “M” tshirt & flexing his muscles…
Comment by Ann H. — May 10, 2007 @ 11:52 am
“Visited two facilities. Nothing to be found. “
Welll…..big fat DUHHHHH!!! They knew you were coming!
Comment by Therese — May 10, 2007 @ 11:53 am
E. : “where do you guys think we SHOULD dump it?”
Ally: “Umm……….front door of the FDA for starters maybe?”
Second that!!
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 11:53 am
E. The FDA cafeteria might be the perfect place for it…. after all, there’s nothing wrong with it.
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 11:53 am
Kim - agree. They’ve not only contradicted that ALL RPC was wheat flour (as far as I could understand the last press conference) and also saying today the poultry was still being held. After the news reported on 5/7/07 that all those 20,000,000 mela-chickens were safe to eat and had been set free for take-off.
None of this jives or makes sense.
Maybe my safe food’s toxicity levels are starting to do their thang to my brain….
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:54 am
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:50 am
When they made the original commments on wheat gluten and RPC being wheat flour, I though it was left ambiguous as to whether that was the case for all of it or for some it. Given the variable reactions pets have had to the various foods, it seems more likely that the contaminants are irregular in type and amount.
Comment by yet another pat — May 10, 2007 @ 11:54 am
“Getting very good cooperation. Visited two facilities. Nothing to be found. “
Gosh, I feel all better now.
Comment by Donna — May 10, 2007 @ 11:55 am
The post office employees might get mad enough to strike however, who knows what exposure to all that poison might do to them?
That would be very bad.
The post office refusing to expose their pregnant employees to a poison the FDA won’t expose theirs to?, giant pissing match .
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 11:56 am
ROFLMAO at “Maybe my safe food’s toxicity levels are starting to do their thang to my brain….”
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 11:56 am
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 11:52 am
I had only one can of Blue left from the case by the time they issued the recall. But I’ve still got it! Will throw on the pile, wherever that pile may be…
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 11:56 am
But we’ll never know what they would’ve found at the RAZED facility now will we?
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 11:57 am
“Visited two facilities. Nothing to be found.”
Right. Cos the one guy bulldozed his plant to the ground in the middle of the night.
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 11:58 am
“There is nothing to be seen at the facilities. Closed down, machinery dismantled. Nothing to get access to. Chinese did collect samples before we got there.”
Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader????
Comment by Donna — May 10, 2007 @ 11:59 am
“Batts: There is nothing to be seen at the facilities. Closed down, machinery dismantled. Nothing to get access to.”
All cleaned out. No Evidence left…
Great, that’s just great!!
*more tequila, with worm, please*
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
So let us, hammered as we are, and please keep in mind that the founding fathers of this country did VERY little , if anything, sober, records exist. decide who needs this poison and the job of dealing with it.
Menu would sell it.
FDA, might marry it, the stuff is so safe.
We gotta get rid of it, who do we mail it to?
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 12:01 pm
“Batts: There is nothing to be seen at the facilities. Closed down, machinery dismantled. Nothing to get access to.”
Dismantled? Bulldozed? Conveniently closed down?
Gee……….the moniker “Genocide Olympics 2008” is broadening in meaning by the day ain’t it?
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
Wheat gluten vs wheat flour? “If this product looked different then the manufacturers as part of quality control would have noticed that.” They didn’t notice visible crystals of melamine? Or more likely, the guys in production noticed and were told to ignore the difference.
Comment by Mike — May 10, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
E. mail it to the NRA in all those postage paid envelopes they send with their junk mail.
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
*hands Peggy the tequila (new bottle, complete with worm*
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
“If this product looked different then the manufacturers as part of quality control would have noticed that.”
UNLESS (gasp) the manufacturers had, shall we say, POOR quality control?
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 12:04 pm
So why was that 5th suspected substance edited out by the FDA after it has already been reported? I looked it up this morning…it’s another plastic ingredient. Still have it in my history.
Comment by BengalMom — May 10, 2007 @ 12:04 pm
“ABC News: Said you were happy with cooperation in China. You can’t interview people detained, nothing at the plants. So what is China cooperating on?”
You rock, go ABC News!
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 12:05 pm
Postage paid envelopes, now THERE is an idea.
Your congress critter send you any campaign stuff lately, hoping for a handout?
Box it up, slap a label on it and off we go.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 12:05 pm
ABC News: Said you were happy with cooperation in China. You can’t interview people detained, nothing at the plants. So what is China cooperating on?
FDA: The hotel is nice; we saw the Great Wall; and the food is pretty good.
Comment by Mike — May 10, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
Finally - thanks ABC News.
Comment by Donna — May 10, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
*worm is for cats*
*Ty*
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
Kansas City Star: What gluten and wheat flour dont’ look anything alike.
Acheson: Have to get back to you. Can only assume it’s not an obvious difference. It was our forensic chemistry center that measured starch levels.
This may not have been pure wheat flour. In truth, we don’t know exactly what it is.
…………………….
Oh. My. Gawd.
That is so reassuring I can’t even hold myself back.
Anyone else?
Well maybe, just maybe…….that forensic chemistry center of yours is in need of a vital tune-up?
*ka-BOOM!!!*
Clean up on aisle 7! Ally’s head just went all ‘esplodey!!!
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
“Chicago Tribune: Can confirm an IL company that rec’d contaminated RPC and distributed it?
Rogers: Yes.
Tribune: Can you name it?
Rogers: These press conferences are designed to alert the public, but our investigative process involves determining scope and if products were distributed. We are in discussions with these firms and if it’s determined a recall is necessary, the firms will say that and we’ll put it on our website.”
I have no words.
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 12:07 pm
Who the heck do these guys work for anyway?????????????????????????
Comment by Therese — May 10, 2007 @ 12:07 pm
ABCNew… you know those 18,000 calls? those were the live test subjects.
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 12:07 pm
Batts: We are satisfied
Does anyone realize pet owners are NOT satisfied.
Comment by Donna — May 10, 2007 @ 12:07 pm
I hope y’all have umbrellas ready…my head is about to explode in a big way!
Comment by Therese — May 10, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
I’m finding this concept counter-intuitive, from Dr. Sundlof:
Could someone with more of a science background explain this to me? The excretion was supposed to be key to the dilution factor. The hogs and chickens did not appear sick. If the hogs were excreting the melamine so quickly that it wasn’t a health hazard down the line, wouldn’t this also mean it would cause damage to the hogs’ kidneys?
Maybe this is a really dumb question. Obviously, hogs aren’t at the same point in the food chain humans are, so maybe that’s the difference.
Comment by yet another pat — May 10, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
I think I need a brain transplant so I can understand this stuff!
Comment by Therese — May 10, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
“This may not have been pure wheat flour. In truth, we don’t know exactly what it is.”
Well what the frack is it??
What other toxins and poisons did it include???
*Cat asks for ‘nother worm, please*
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 12:10 pm
Rogers: “These press conferences are designed to alert the public…”
Kim: “I have no words.”
*ditto*
And obviously, neither do they.
*gets prepared for umbrella damage patrol*
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
“ABC News: Testing of melamine and cyanuric acid testing on live animals anywhere now?”
Why yes, all across America! In pet homes feeding tainted foods we won’t release the names of…
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
Trying again. I bracketed the comment instead of quoting, so of course it didn’t show up. duh.
I’m finding this concept counter-intuitive, from Dr. Sundlof:
He said: Melamine is very water soluble and is excreted quickly. That is in fact why it causes so many kidney problems.
Comment by yet another pat — May 10, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
Our elected officals, the ones who have failed us all are begging for money and the cards and letters are pouring in , hoping for an outpouring of money.
I SPENT my money, on poison, on vet bills, on taxes that paid for the officials who failed me, it won’t cost me a dime more to send this last thing back to the folks who could not bring themselves to actually help me.
If it is no longer a problem to them then why should it bother me?
I am thrilled to the bone to have it on the way out of my house and on the way to those who know so much better than I do how to deal with it.
My heart is set on it, next begging letter gets ALL that I have to give! Gosh, that feels good!
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 12:12 pm
Are we all in a Saturday Night Live skit and don’t know it?
Comment by Therese — May 10, 2007 @ 12:12 pm
I’ve lost it here, totally hysterical. Therese is my witness.
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 12:13 pm
“Has rec’d 18,000 calls alleging animal illness or death. Quick review suggests as many as 50 percent MAY allege animal death. Final numbers is longer term process.”
9,000 possible Deaths!!!
*Cat skips worm; goes straight for bottle*
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 12:13 pm
Let’s all have a moment of silence in Kim’s memory!
Comment by Therese — May 10, 2007 @ 12:13 pm
“FDA: The hotel is nice; we saw the Great Wall; and the food is pretty good.”
Comment by Mike — May 10, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
Do you think they ate the chicken?
Comment by Joyce — May 10, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
Therese - it’s like “Groundhog Day”. We keep waking up to the same nightmare day after day after day.
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
Ally
You’re right it is just like that.
Comment by Joyce — May 10, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
Kim - issok. I lost it weeks ago.
We can keep one another company.
Therese, anyone else……..feel free to join us.
Just someone please grab the cases of ta-killya please.
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:16 pm
Acheson: Sorry if I got my words all mixey-uppey’d. Bye.
What a fitting conclusion.
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 12:18 pm
Sundloff - I don’t want to leave the misimpression that FDA thinks there are 9000 pet deaths.
I am beyond words.
Comment by Donna — May 10, 2007 @ 12:19 pm
I’ve been wondering on the fish meal vs. fish feed issue. The terms seemed to have been interchangeably.
And, of course, while fish feed is something fed to fish, fish meal is an ingredient in pet foods :p
Comment by yet another pat — May 10, 2007 @ 12:21 pm
“Reporter: Clarifying how many calls and animal deaths.
Reply: Has rec’d 18,000 calls alleging animal illness or death. Quick review suggests as many as 50 percent MAY allege animal death. Final numbers is longer term process.”
We’re back to the FDA saying approx. 9,000 deaths. I believe they made the L.A. Times take back their 8,500 deaths from info extrapolated from a previous conference, and revert back to the 4,000#, which was 16 just prior to that.
Comment by Maureen — May 10, 2007 @ 12:21 pm
Aren’t THEY the ones who said there was a problem getting the Visas for the investigators to go to China? Now they say there was no problem, it only took an hour, don’t know how that misinformation got out there?! Next thing you know, they’ll be saying there was no toxin in the pet food, it was redacted for a reason - ooh look: something shiny…
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 12:21 pm
Did I read this right?
Sundloff:
“Will probably be the fall before we have that.”
(before they have the number of pet deaths?!!!)
That can’t be right.
It’s not acceptable.
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:23 pm
So, who is sending a poisoned pet food cache where?
Mine is going to the next elected official who begs for money and includes a postage paid envelope.
I have plenty, why not spread the FDA safe stuff around? I am making up boxes and enjoying myself.
I need to compose a letter, which if they actually read it, will warn the official not to USE the food, since it sure as heck killed my pets, but who needs to worry?, the FDA says it is fine , then fine it shall be shipped.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 12:24 pm
Abigail Goldman, LA Times: “Slowly spell the fish companies that got the contaminated fish feed.”
This woman seriously rocked my world today.
I may have to consider dropping off a bottle of tequila to her.
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:25 pm
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:23 pm
They’ve said from early on that they had to get the investigation of the food contamination completed before they would be investigating the number of deaths.
I don’t think FDA has the resources to do it all at once.
That’s one reason the false two-digit number of deaths I won’t repeat keeps getting bantered about. They’ve had no opportunity to certify any pet deaths.
Comment by yet another pat — May 10, 2007 @ 12:27 pm
“ABC News: Testing of melamine and cyanuric acid testing on live animals anywhere now? Or remains of animals who ate the bad pet food?
“Petersen: I’m not aware, but researchers at Universities may be working on something. “
May Be???
Doesn’t he know??
Shouldn’t we be looking into this?
Isn’t it important to know the cause?
WTF???
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 12:28 pm
> Acheson: Import alert is 100 percent. Stopping EVERY vegetable protein concentrate from China. To get it released, company has to come to us with validated tests, paperwork, assurances, that this material is okay, free of melamine and other compounds.
Wow. I’m relieved and reassured. Good thing it’s completely impossible to create fake paperwork.
[/sarcasm]
Comment by Barry — May 10, 2007 @ 12:29 pm
(That was bandied, not bantered. I should give up while I’m behind.)
Comment by yet another pat — May 10, 2007 @ 12:29 pm
another pat - I won’t type that 2 digit number either. I’ll go postal if I do. but I cannot accept that pet parents suffering through the deaths of their cherished companions must wait so long. they needed more resources 8 weeks ago. but hey - it’s on the FDA’s agenda to close down 13 of their testing facilities so no problem, right?
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
another pat - just saw your latest reply.
copy that & no problem. ;)
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:32 pm
I love the question about who and how they addressed it. Why no follow up on that bull answer?
Oh that’s right. The FDA reads this blog and says, ‘Well we dodged that one. God these press people are easily dealt with. Good thing we don’t let any bloggers in here.”
Rogers: These press conferences are designed to alert the public, but our investigative process involves determining scope and if products were distributed. We are in discussions with these firms and if it’s determined a recall is necessary, the firms will say that and we’ll put it on our website.
What does that tell you? That they are NOT going to tell us. Why because they have no MANDATORY power to compel them to talk. And if the company has heard that the stuff is safe, why talk?
Do I have to prove that it isn’t safe?
They have 24 hours to recall toys for god’s sake, how many pets have to die over how many days until they decide to pull the products?
Comment by spocko — May 10, 2007 @ 12:32 pm
“how many pets have to die over how many days until they decide to pull the products?”
Comment by spocko — May 10, 2007 @ 12:32 pm
Can I get back to you with that answer sometime this fall?
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
The FDA LOST their chance to certify the deaths of my pets. The FDA has NOT the power to say that my pets are dead, that others are ill and will remain so until I end their suffering, the FDA is not helping me clean up vomit or feed safe food or nurse my wounded, the FDA IS FIRING shots into my home on a daily basis, so what EXACTLY do I owe the FDA?
I have a stash of poisoned pet food, I don’t want it, I don’t need it and the FDA says it is SAFE so it is on the way out the door and that is ONE problem down.
The FDA can duke it out with the postal workers.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
If they are not going to tell us anything, then why bother to have a press conference??!!??
Comment by Mary Smith — May 10, 2007 @ 12:38 pm
Someone wrote that there was a fifth toxin in the pet food. I new there was melamine and 2 others but I didn’t know what the others are. What are they?
Comment by Jill — May 10, 2007 @ 12:38 pm
That “Chinese are cooperating” line is really classic. What is your definition of cooperation?
They had a taxi waiting for us at the airport and a little man with a sign that say, “FDA Inspectors Welcome!”
Comment by spocko — May 10, 2007 @ 12:38 pm
spocko - and if they do put it up on their website, be sure and snap those screeng grabs early & while you can. as kim noted earlier, things are being deleted on the fly. makes so much sense to take them at their word don’t it? the FDA has a handle on this entire thing, yep indeedy.
just don’t put them on the spot explaining fish food vs fish meal.
nope. best not to go there or acheson’s brain might get all esplodey.
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:39 pm
Ally. They don’t need testing facilities because they only know that it’s a complicated test that needs to be done and they don’t know how to do it. They are seriously down on their science luck and if they were able to ever prove that to themselves… their heads would explode in aisle 7 all over the doritos and iams.
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
Send the poisoned pet food to your elected officials, do it using the postpaid envelopes that all of us are getting, and paying for in taxes, and do it now.
Why should you save 50 or a 100 pounds worth of poisoned, read FDA “tainted” food. FDA says it is safe to eat ? Then it is fine to mail.
Keep what you need for testing or evidence or whatever, but send the bulk to those who looked the other way.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 12:41 pm
Steve: When are you guys going to come clean with America?
Feds: Good question. We rarely act in the interests of the people, almost always choosing to strengthen corporatism. It’s just a job. Nothing is 100% safe. We all eat the same stuff. You know, never question whats put on your plate. And eat all you take.
Comment by Steve — May 10, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
I know it’s just a pipe dream (and I’m not even drinking tequila;), but surely the President has emergency funds he could release so the investigation of deaths and illness could be taken care of in a timely fashion. Maybe they could hire some more scientists to do testing of melamine in meat, etc., as well, instead of relying on what investigators at universities and private labs might do.
What happens if there’s another food emergency while FDA is bogged down with this?
Comment by yet another pat — May 10, 2007 @ 12:44 pm
Steve: Quit jacking me around and answer the damn question.
Feds: Oh, thats right the question. Had fish last night. Pretty good stuff. Kids loved it. This weekend we are having friends over for a Chicken fest. Lots of barbecue, and balloons for the kids.
Next Question. You, over there.
Comment by Steve — May 10, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
I just sent two pounds of “tainted ” love to an official who has been no help whatsoever, gee, I hope he reads the included letter, if not, he will have to take it up with the FDA and good luck with that!
The mailman seemed dubious until I pointed out that he needs to bring this up at the next union meeting, he KNOWS the pets that died, that might be a colorful union meeting. I DID mention the FDA warning about pregnant people being warned to keep away from it. Gave him a copy for the union meeting. He will make copies.
The postman seemed less than thrilled with the FDA. Lot of that going around.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
poor steve, it’s terrible when a brain cracks in half like that
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 12:50 pm
As far as I understand it from the last FDA press conference, ALL the chickens were not released for sale. Only those that had some of the feed available that they could test. If the test was negative, the chickens were free to line up at the slaughterhouse. Was it Forbes who initially put out that news article that said ALL 20 mil chickens were free to go? That was wrong information.
If the rest of these chickens are going to slaughter at all, they’ll all be stewing hens. And because they breed so breast heavy these days, probably some of them will be falling over on their beaks soon.
Comment by CathyA — May 10, 2007 @ 12:50 pm
you go, E.
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 12:51 pm
another pat - surely yes but since the shrub has yet to even issue a press release ACKNOWLEDGING the recall, be it pet or human (unless I’ve missed it), I’m not holding my breath.
How hard would it be for the shrub to publicaly say “we are aware there is a problem with considerable amounts of pet food. we are working on it and our hearts are with you over the loss of your cherished pets”? Even if it would be tripe, it would at least be something to address pet parents he’s aware of this debacle. For some tragic reason, he’s chosen not to. It’s a very, very sad state of affairs on all fronts.
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:52 pm
Hey Ally, I’m back. *looks around* Anyone else joining us in lost-it land?
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 12:53 pm
Comment by CathyA — May 10, 2007 @ 12:50 pm
Cathy, I don’t know who was first to break the news. The article I was referencing was from Reuters (Washington) here:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/.....9520070507
“Farmers will be allowed to sell 20 million chickens that were being held on farms that may have received feed contaminated with the chemical melamine, suspected in a rash of pet deaths, the U.S. Agriculture Department said on Monday.”
I must have missed where it was announced that this was not to be the case. Can anyone tell me when that happened?
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
You know if I was one of the media I get really tired of being treated like chumps and idiots. I’d request more time, more follow ups and less vague answers from people who are delaying prompt information.
So what happens if we find out that one of the companies that they are so nicely protecting is in fact pumping this stuff out?
Nothing. Why? Because there are no laws being broken! You heard that right.
If Company X finds out on Monday that the food has melamine and they don’t announce it for 5 days or three weeks, they are still in the clear legally. (Morally is another question not in the scope of this discussion)
The FDA (unlike the Consumer Products Safety Commission with it’s 24 hour timeframe) has no deadline from the time of awareness till the time of recall.
And remember, the FDA has NO mandatory recall authority.
They can only suggest it, except for Baby Formula.
I think the journalists in these press conferences understand that every time the FDA can’t convince a company to promptly release the name of the company that is getting shipment they are opening the door to more illness and death. I just wonder how many days need to pass for people to think that it is too long 2, 4, 24?
The FDA can get away with this because they have no timeframes and they
have to be in “discussions with these firms and if it’s determined a recall is necessary, the firms will say that and we’ll put it on our website.” to pull from the non-exact transcript . (BTW, I want to make clear that I did not quote someone, I’m just repeating Christie’s live blogging capture of info. I want to support and reinforce her live-blogging disclaimer)
Comment by spocko — May 10, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
I am trying to figure out how they test 20 million chickens and keep track of which are which and who tests negative. I would hate to be the person with that job.
Comment by Stephanie — May 10, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
Kim: “Hey Ally, I’m back.”
*perks up*
HEY! Where ya been woman? We missed you!
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:57 pm
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:52 pm
If he’s heard anything about it, I would imagine it’s along the lines of “only 1% of pet food affected, 16 dead pets”, so probably not overly concerned.
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 12:57 pm
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @
Feds: Our advise is to enjoy. Have the fish and chips, have the chicken sandwich, have the nuggets. Have a side of fries. The dilution effect is your insurance policy. Be thankful you have plenty to eat. Think fresh. As long as it’s fresh you have nothing to be concerned about. For the pets, you still have 110 different brands to choose from. Hows that for choice?
Comment by Steve — May 10, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 12:57 pm
Sad, but most likely true. :-/
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Ally, I believe the back-peddling began about 2 days ago
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 12:59 pm
Steve: Americans want to know why our pets are being used as living garbage and waste disposals and people are crash test dummies for Bio Tech?
Feds: Oh uh. . . .Look! Over there. It’s a bird, it’s a plane, it’s . . . Next Question, the gentlemen in the khakis and polo shirt.
Comment by Steve — May 10, 2007 @ 1:02 pm
Box it up . Send it out, Your elected officials, the ones who could not bother to help you?, those assholes are sending you postage paid stuff everyday, hoping for a hand out, send them one.
You have plenty of stockpiled food that you DARE not feed your pets, the FDA says it is safe, though not for THEIR pregnant workers, send it to the folks you pay to protect you.
Be sure and hand a printout of the FDA stuff to the postal worker.
DO IT!
TEA PARTY !
No need to pollute a harbor, just send the poison to those who claim they know how to handle it.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 1:03 pm
Peggy, you mean Tuesday’s press conference? If so, I’ll need to go re-read the transcript. I think I was too caught up on the FISH suddenly spawning amidst the fray and the 50,000 SWINE number change.
Or most possibly it was Kim’s brilliant addition of tequila to the liveblogging event. Pick any of the above. The end result of my synapses going all kaflooey after Tuesday’s press confab would still the same.
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
NO! I do not have 110 different brands to choose from.
How do they come up with that any way?
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
Re: the mysterious 5th ingredient
A blogger at Itchmo indicated that the 5th ingredient might be benzoguanimine. However, this person said it is added to the sample as an internal standard, or control, in the testing process, and not a suspect contaminant. If that is true then the FDA doesn’t want to disclose it’s testing protocol, which makes sense.
Comment by Maureen — May 10, 2007 @ 1:05 pm
Ally, no it was before that. *tries to remember*
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 1:05 pm
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 1:04
Feds: 97% of that is made by Menu. Now your either with us or against us. Which is it going to be?
Comment by Steve — May 10, 2007 @ 1:06 pm
Spin spin spin
Comment by Steve — May 10, 2007 @ 1:06 pm
Dr. Sundlof:
He said: Melamine is very water soluble and is excreted quickly. That is in fact why it causes so many kidney problems.
that’s not what the msds says… says it’s *partially* soluble in cold water.
Comment by pat — May 10, 2007 @ 1:10 pm
You know E. Hamilton. I like your idea and I want applaud your creativity. I think you are smart to be very, very clear what you are doing with the pet food. I want you to document everything and inform everyone very very explicitly. Especially at the post office. You want them on your side. You might even want to alert the people at the office of the politician what you are doing. The staff in the mail room aren’t the enemy.
What you are doing is a bit of political theatre and the post office is actually an institution that can be useful for legal purposes too.
You can point out the contradictions in the words of the FDA when you ship the food.
But considering that the people who sent anthrax through the mail have never been caught and they actually KILLED people I want you to be very clear. And I’m glad you involved the post office people. I know some postal workers and they are actually very nice people.
Comment by spocko — May 10, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
“Melamine is very water soluble and is excreted quickly. That is in fact why it causes so many kidney problems.”
um, i thought it was because it latched onto the organs while quickly forming plastic crystals? ya know, like “instant kidney stones”
gawd, i must be stooopid.
Comment by straybaby — May 10, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
I’m pretty sure it was the last FDA press conference which said that about the chickens. Or it was in a release they put out about the chickens. The paper, whichever it was, was wrong. Stephanie, they’re not testing chickens, they’re testing the feed. If there was no melamine in the feed they let them go.
Now what I can’t figure out is why pork is such a problem if everything’s *diluted*. Why are they still holding those pigs, if the ones that got sent *on* before weren’t a problem to consumers. At least someone asked today about the levels of melamine in pork, but they didn’t answer. I think the whole thing hinges on them having some sort of quick test available as the one now is doing real bench chemistry. The number of tests they’re running are phenomenal. All those poor FERN lab people are probably working their fingers off.
And just as an aside, I contacted two grocery stores here about melachicken. Sweet Bay (used to be Kash & Karry) sent my email on through several people and eventually to the chicken producer - Fieldale Farms. Rats I can’t get to it now, but their answer was complete and reassured me. Albertson’s on the other hand, did not tell me where they got their chickens, just said they follow all rules and regs and to contact the FDA. Well, Albertsons, won’t be buying any more chicken from you! I will follow up with them, but don’t expect any real answer but just more weasel words.
Comment by CathyA — May 10, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
Maureen,
Bat guano, is that what’s in the wheat flour with the scrap melamine,
Wheat flour with scrap melamine that sets-up so good that no one notices…tell me there’s not something else…I don’t think it’s all adding up
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 1:14 pm
Something isn’t it? Citizen bloggers and sleuths were able to bust thing wide open in 5 to 10 days and expose all the flaws in it’s entirety and the Feds still can’t even get their facts straight.
Comment by Steve — May 10, 2007 @ 1:15 pm
I must be on the same tequila as Ally…..I know I heard them (the wonder boys at FDA) say a day or two ago that they were releasing ALL the chickens for slaughter. Ally, if you’re losing it, then I’m in the same boat…..er, bottle of tequila. Hannah (my Lab) wants the tequila soaked worm. Geez, so did I.
Comment by JanC — May 10, 2007 @ 1:19 pm
Comment by Maureen — May 10, 2007 @ 1:05 pm
It doesn’t make sense to me. If the redacted toxin were simply a chemical used in the testing process and not a contaminant in the pet food, wouldn’t they simply say that?
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 1:21 pm
slt……”wouldn’t they simply say that”?????
Have you ever heard them simply say anything? Double talk & BS is all they know.
Comment by JanC — May 10, 2007 @ 1:22 pm
“wouldn’t they simply say that?”
why on earth would you think that?! lol!~ have you not been playing along? ;)
Comment by straybaby — May 10, 2007 @ 1:23 pm
Spocko, thanks, my point EXACTLY.
If the food is safe, per the FDA, then I am merely sending it to those who claim to know of how better to deal with it.
If the food is NOT safe, then the FDA has some splaining to do, and the postal workers can take it up at union meetings.
Meanwhile, the pile o poison at MY house is less.
I do NOT need 80 lbs and counting of dubious pet food in my life and neither do you.
They can cover it up all they want but they will STILL have to deal with it, one way or another.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 1:26 pm
Sending contaminated or otherwise pet food to the government is not an effective way to make a statement. It will end up in the dead-letter file and won’t be delivered. And I would imagine there is a law against sending questionable substances through the mail - or using the mail for this probably questionable if not illegal purpose. I would consult an attorney before I send wet or dry or whatever food in envelopes to our governmental officials.
And if the pet food is poisoned and you knowingly send out poisoned food - then that is a crime.
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 1:27 pm
OK let me rephrase that - Instead of getting a bunch of amateur pet food sleuths poking all around the internet and bothering everyone about the mysterious 5th toxin, wouldn’t they just say “it’s not in the pet food, just a chemical involved in the test itself”? I think that’s something we could all understand and if they wanted to keep the name of that chemical private so they don’t disclose their super-secret testing method, that’s fine.
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 1:27 pm
Anyone noticing the more you try to make what the FDA says make sense, the crazier you sound?
It’s not you. It’s them. It’s not science. It’s talking in circles. They’re not doing anything at all except now they seem moderately aware that they’ve been destroying the food supply. And they’re very busy having meetings about having meetings.
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 1:28 pm
You know I gave the press and the FDA two press conferences to get the information out that the 20 million chickens (plus the 3.5 million chickens) are just fine. That is the message that they have used their bully pulpit to send (okay it wasn’t a bully pulpit but I just like saying bully pulpit)
So now I’m going to start naming names.
Starting tomorrow. You see I DO know the names of some of the chicken manufacturers. But I’ve been waiting for the FDA to get out their key messages about how safe it is to eat the chicken and how nobody should worry. Now that they have had a whole week to get that message out I’m going to start naming names.
And I don’t expect anyone to bother trying to stop me either. Why? Because it’s safe, the FDA said so. The USDA will be putting a stamp on them, so they are safe. I’m sure that I will not be in any trouble for naming names.
I’ll let you know if I get any emails from anyone asking me not to name names.
Oh and FDA? If you want to contact me and ask me not to name names you can emaill me. (oh and if any of the chicken manufacturers want to contact me and ask me not to name names I’m at
spockosemail at gmail.com)
Comment by spocko — May 10, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
So many words, so little content.
And does everyone here know what they aren’t saying about those hatchery fish? Every year, thousands are released to stock lakes, streams, reservoirs all over Oregon. Some of our local papers have “fish stocking” reports, so you know where they released them and how many, so you can plan your fishing accordingly.
So if we think we will avoid fish fed a diet of tainted food by fishing this summer, think again. “Wild caught” means you either caught a wild trout or a “former hatchery fed tainted food” trout.
Comment by TC — May 10, 2007 @ 1:31 pm
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 1:28 pm
Whenever they are removed from their carefully crafted realities, they stumble, stammer. Note their constant need to reframe and redefine their statements to keep up with the information thats already found its way to the general public.
Comment by Steve — May 10, 2007 @ 1:32 pm
What the heck? I called it a TEA PARTY and the thread is at itchmo forums.
Spring cleaning, wake up call, whatever you want to call it, just get the poison OUT of your house.
I am sending the poison packing, and straight to the lying officials too!
If China and the pet food companies can send poison labled as food into MY home, then I can send it BACK!
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
spocko - you go man. I’ll be cheering you on & eagerly awaiting updates.
So…… I did some sleuthing through my bookmarks and found another article that said the 20 mil. chickens were free to go. This time it was the washington post on 5/8/07:
………………………..
Chickens That Ate Bad Feed Pass Test
Quarantined Birds Ruled Safe to Eat
By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, May 8, 2007; Page D01
“Chickens that ate bird feed made with a small amount of contaminated pet food are safe for human consumption and can be released for slaughter and sale, federal health officials said yesterday.”
……………………..
Now I just need to figure out when and where the story changed and how I missed it. Unless of course Acheson was in charge because dadgum that dude can confuse the pants off anyone with a modicum of intelligence.
ps. to E. Hamilton:
you rock my world. if I had some tainted food I’d be following suit in a heartbeat. if you need to send me some to to help in your effort, do it.
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 1:37 pm
Ally, I think, and it’s just my speculation, they had a change of heart about letting us eat poison right after it came out that it was common knowledge, in China, but not here, that cyanuric acid has also been used as an adulterant for years:
http://iht.com/articles/2007/0.....etfood.php
China finds two companies guilty in tainted pet food export
By David Barboza Published: May 8, 2007
“But chemical producers here say it is common knowledge in the chemical and agriculture industry that for years feed producers in China have quietly and secretly used cyanuric acid to cheat buyers of animal feed. In the United States”
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 1:38 pm
I suggest that other readers who think this is a good idea (to send the poison pet food in envelopes to Congress) to think better of it.
I’m sure the FBI will not take kindly to this tactic and after it is analyzed, even if you are not prosecuted, you might have to foot the bill for pestering the daylights out of people who are trying to protect our country during difficult times.
Even a phony bomb if sent to scare people is still a crime and carries the same stiff penalties.
So all you good hearted grieving pet owners please do not do this - sending in the poison pet food knowing it is poison might be a serious crime.
Do something effective like stop buying pet food made by these companies.
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 1:27 pm
The FDA says it is safe and they can duke it out with the postal workers, The FDA says it is NOT safe?, big news.
Either way, I get it out of my house.
If the FDA was all that concerned they knew where to find it, I reported both deaths and both illnesses, fat lot of good it did me or my pets.
The FDA has no time for me and my dead canaries?
Fine, I have no room for “tainted” food. I thought it was poison, the FDA says it was “tainted”, either way, that is what the officals get instead of money this year, maybe next year too. I SPENT my money on vet bills, pet food that I dare not feed, and time off from work and time spent learning how I can sure live without bloodsucking donothing political parasites-I think the said bloodsucking parasites might want to know that.
So I sent them a gift.
Postage paid.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 1:48 pm
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
Better idea is pack the food in large cement blocks. Stamp it with “Return to Sender”.
Toxic Pet Food Enclosed. Sledgehammer and labor not included.
Yours Truly, concerned Citizen.
Comment by Steve — May 10, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
ooo. that USDA stamp is going to mean a lot once spocko’s done with it.
If you don’t want to send the ‘safe for human consumpution’ pet food throught the mail… because after all, there is NO evidence that human food is affected by the very same contaminants as the pet food… you could use those postage paid envelopes to send love letters weighted down with a few inert rock specimens to begging officials… just a thought.
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
Re: the 5th ingredient
See Itchmo: AladdinsLamp @6:47 am and 10:21 am http://www.itchmo.com/read/rec.....0#comments
Itchmo pulled his provocative link early this a.m. regarding the 4 known chemicals/ingredients + 1 (the 5th ingredient) and edited a previous reference in which he said the FDA “censored” — or redacted — the name of this chemical.
(I can’t believe I’m standing up for the FDA in this instance, but I at least withhold judgment about this for now). Here’s what the FDA said today:
“CNN: Asking about redacted contaminant on FDA website (Note: as mentioned by Itchmo last night!)
Acheson: “It’s redacted for a reason.” Cannot answer.
Michael Rogers: That’s information we don’t want to disclose. Also about the variety of tests we intend to engage in.”
If this is a chemical they use in testing, then they don’t want to tip off the bad guys or they will think of a way to keep doing business as usual with these products and find a way to thwart the test.
Comment by Maureen — May 10, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
The media is not at all impressive. There were a few good questions, but no follow up and no questions about discrepancies. This seems to be more of a show than anything else.
Comment by Carol — May 10, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
But he said:
Melamine…excreted quickly…CAUSES So MANY KIDNEY PROBLEMS!
I thought they told us don’t fear - melamine is safe to ingest - no problem. And, I don’t think the question was in regards to the pets because he said this when addressing the fish. I believe he also said something about the further up the chain(us) the more cummulative effect.
I sure hope the press can see through this malarkey and BS that they are being fed!
Katie
Comment by Katie — May 10, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
It is one thing to be smart and act with “bravo” on the blog and another to try to encourage others to commit a crime. I asked my Attorney Ex Husband and he said “Oh, they will probabaly be thrown in jail for trying to posion a politician.”
I’ve slung a lot of mud at those who have hurt our pets, but I say this in all seriousness - it is a bad idea and it is a bad idea to encourage others to follow your example.
I do not believe breaking the law under any circumstances is to one’s benefit or to the benefit of one’s noble cause. I assure you this idea of sending the poison food to our federal agencies is and will cause you problems.
As for me and my pet house, we avoid such sticky situations at all costs. Best you think twice kiddo.
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
Ally - I’m back again. The first time I was off ‘losing it’. Seriously.
Just now I was out in the yard with my cat enjoying the sun, weeding. Trying to keep myself from losing it, again.
(My neck is flared up so I have less patience than I normally do, and these days, that isn’t much.)
Comment by Kim — May 10, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
The other rather obvious thing I noticed is that the FDA is truly not accustomed to being held accountable for its own statements. Nor do they enjoy being asked questions by people being so pesky and annoying.
I am thankful there is an internet. I can’t think of ANYTHING that is going to solve the ineptness of the FDA, USDA, etc. Certainly not in my remaining lifetime. However, the internet is giving me much insight on how I might craft my own response to this food crisis of unbelievable proportions. Working on a greenhouse plan, planning the slaughter of a few of my cows, adding a freezer, thinking about how to do chickens without commercial feed, and the like. Including a commitment to buy nothing imported from China unless there is no meaningful alternative and we must have the product.
But, I have to come to terms with the fact that every food item I wish to buy may or may not cause illness or death. Even things that are supposedly “wild caught” or from a “trusted” local.
I had NO idea that we were importing so many things from a country with no standards. However, most people still have no idea what really just happened or what is lurking just around the corner if we keep being this careless about what we import. So as long as the majority of americans do not realize there is currently contaminant in their food, or realize how widespread this is, or what “trade with China or XXXX” means, they will continue to want govt. to pursue trade with places like China. Because of the influx of affordable (read CHEAP) chinese goods is simply too irresistable. And besides, HELLO, our govt. is saying everything is okay, so quit being an alarmist.
People would have to die in a way that is directly attributable to tainted/adulterated food and our import process, and in sufficient quantities before anything would change with regard to our import situation.
Comment by TC — May 10, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
Sad but true TC.
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
Send a few pounds of poisoned pet food to reporters too, send it everywhere.
The FDA says it is safe, fine, then you can send it wherever you wish.
Send it in food packages to china, send it to the queen in England, myself, I use post paid stuff from politicians but do as you will.
It is all safe, per the FDA!
Don’t forget the printout about how the FDA does not want any of THEIR pregnant workers handeling it!! Though, frankly, if Mom works for the FDA, the one big eye thing?, it will hardly be noticed.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 2:02 pm
Kim - no worries. I think it’s time I took my dogs outside for a sunshine-weeding break myself. it’s all good and your (all of our) feelings are easily understandable. thanks for the suggestion. :)
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 2:02 pm
Kim said “Just now I was out in the yard with my cat enjoying the sun, weeding. Trying to keep myself from losing it, again.”
Funny that, I was just doing the very same thing.
I mean what else is in this wheat flour after all. I mean really this is getting to be just too much.
*BTW don’t eat the limes straight without the tequila*
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
In fact I do not believe it is a good idea for a blog to encourage such behavior????? Maybe no one is reading this - ummmmmm……..
Sending poison to Congress??? I’m sure that is a crime. Yep. That’s one I don’t even have to look up - it is “prima facie” wrong.
Repeating it many times makes it no less right either.
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
from http://www.usps.com/customersguide/_pdf/DMM100.pdf.
Regarding what can be mailed via USPS
Restricted items include:
Illegal or infectious substances
Poisonous materials
Call 1·800·ASK·USPS or visit your Post Office if you have questions about the item you are mailing.
Comment by slt — May 10, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
The FDA and the FBI and the PFI and the CIA are going to have to arrest quite a few of the “chain o poison gang” before they get down to me, is my point.
I did not put the poison in the food, they know who did that.
I did not cover up that the food was poisoned, they know who did that.
I did not lie about the poison, heck, I have spent the last two months screaming about the poison, they know that.
All I did was feed the poison, bought legally, to my pets and then bitch about it when they died. Hardly an actionable legal problem. Unless of course, a LOT of arrest are made overnight!
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 2:11 pm
Last reference from me about “5th ingredient”
Here’s a protocol published by the FDA on May 7, 2005 for screening for the presence of melamine. The “5th ingredient” is one of the standards used in testing. (In other words, the testers add this as part of their testing protocol.)
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=.....&gl=us
Comment by Maureen — May 10, 2007 @ 2:11 pm
Comment by TC — May 10, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
“People would have to die in a way that is directly attributable to tainted/adulterated food and our import process, and in sufficient quantities before anything would change with regard to our import situation.”
This is it! This is exactly what I get out of what they are saying! I Can’t Stand This!!!
Comment by Peggy (AKA: Big Fat Momma Cat) — May 10, 2007 @ 2:11 pm
“Restricted items include:
Illegal or infectious substances
Poisonous materials”
Hey E. ?
Guess you’re off the hook then since you have the FDA’s stamp of approval that it’s all SAFE. Kewl!
Comment by Ally — May 10, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
How many of us have a stash of poisoned pet food that we dare not feed our pets?PLENTY!
How many of us have elected officials begging for campaign funds, though the elected somehow could not quite bring themselves to actually help us? PLENTY!
OK, box it up, send it out using the postage paid envelopes which can be taped to packages of any weight, and do not forget to hand your postal worker a printout of the stuff where the FDA says it is not safe for THEIR pregnant workers to handle.
MY postal workers are pissed , make sure yours are. Give them the printouts and get to it!
I kept samples of the poison for any attorneys that might be involved but my interest in enriching lawyers is ..as limited as my interest in teaching math to the FDA.
Meanwhile, the poison is out of my house, into the hands of those who claim to know to deal with it and the postal workers are not happy with the FDA.
Works for me.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 2:14 pm
SLT -
thanks for the list. Once a neighbor put something rather disgusting in my mail box and I called the sheriff and the sheriff gave the man heck and almost arrested him - it is a crime to put harmful items in the mail - no matter where or how it originated - if you are the force that put it in the mail - then it is a crime. So better prepare your arguments for the judge lady - you’ll need them.
Our sorrow and our suffering for the loss of our pets do not give us the right to hurt others our representatives or anyone else for that matter - even if we think they might deserve it.
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 2:16 pm
P.S. I almost think I have to quit reading the liveblogs - these people are simply driving me over the edge straight to hopelessness about this situation.
Agency people this willing to play this dumb are not just something that happened in the last election, or two or three. They have a policy manual that mandates picking people with a snotty, bad attitude, and a “the taxpayer is a dummy” mentality.
Comment by TC — May 10, 2007 @ 2:17 pm
Kim……sorry, I chugged that bottle of tequila so I can’t pass it back. My dog ate the worm (didn’t want to fight over it) & now she’s down for the count. Poor Hannah. Glad you got some sun…..maybe I’ll try that.
Had a thought about the big PF companies. They have really been keeping a low profile throughout this whole thing & I think I know why. For them to admit that they had any contaminated glutens, wheat flours, whatever the hell that crap is, would scare the public into staying away from their human food. If they had contaminated flour & used it in pet food, then they may have used it in human food. I AM NOT CONDONING their actions, not even a little, but that thought just hit me. While they have kept silent & have been sneaking around pulling bags & cans off the shelves in the middle of the night, people who are unaware are still feeding that to their animals. So they are lily-livered, lying cowards who care not for other living things, only their own asses. Oh, & big bonuses, let’s not forget those million dollar bonuses.
I hope those bas***** can sleep at night….if not, I would be happy to bring them some “safe” melachicken for a midnight snack. Or maybe a little fish…..or pork. I’d rather see them eat it than any of us or our pets.
Comment by JanC — May 10, 2007 @ 2:25 pm
You guys are nuts.
Comment by Terry — May 10, 2007 @ 2:25 pm
Considering the Vet bills, I just can’t support a politician who did not support my concerns.
What I CAN do is send you a sample of the food that killed my pets!
Thank me later.
I do not feel safe eating the food on the store shelves, seeing how it killed my pets and makes my kidneys hurt, so I thought you might want to earn your tax supported salary by looking into the subject first!
Oh, you have a pet project, goodie goodie, will they die from poisoned food or is that all being fixed by the FDA? Here ya go!
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 2:26 pm
Quote:
The FDA (unlike the Consumer Products Safety Commission with it’s 24 hour timeframe) has no deadline from the time of awareness till the time of recall.
And remember, the FDA has NO mandatory recall authority.
They can only suggest it, except for Baby Formula.
Comment by spocko — May 10, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
——-End Quote
In another time, another universe, the FDA could *use* the fact that they have no mandatory recall authority
*by going public*!
Name horse and rider, and >>>ka-chinggg
Comment by MaKo — May 10, 2007 @ 2:27 pm
I hope the men in the white coats carry a few of you away before the police show up.
Comment by Terry — May 10, 2007 @ 2:27 pm
thats it.. i am boycotting ALL china’s products.
now think on this> china still cannot make a good vacume tube? doubt it? ask any musican.
china’s “knowhow” is based on america.. (how many pattents are stolen)if you continue to feed the dragon it WILL own you.. right now,looking in my home i find maybe a dozen items that have any connection to china. i repair cars with american tools , i repair
early american radio’s (american) and early ibm
computers . all american! if you’v got gadgets
you’d better make an assesment of what matters?
feed the dragon , you’l lose your country.
Comment by johnypaycut — May 10, 2007 @ 2:28 pm
Elizabeth and Linda … enough. You’ve both made your points. Move on, please.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 10, 2007 @ 2:29 pm
(darn brackets)
ka-chinggg … the company would recall right then and there.
Companies do not recall because they know the FDA protects their names.
May I, please, have the bottle, too?
Thanks
Comment by MaKo — May 10, 2007 @ 2:30 pm
Me think these contaminated pigs and chickens need to become a spayed pet, unless EPA thinks they need to be destroyed. Many of us would probably contribute to an adoption farm…it’s not these poor creatures fault that they have been caught in limbo. What’s the lifespan of these creatures ??
Comment by Bee — May 10, 2007 @ 2:31 pm
Linda and Peggy - I have never done well at being “hopeless.” I try to find solutions. But I admit this thing is so big that somedays I think the only thing I can do is just change my attitude about it, because there is likely no real solution in my lifetime. I can manage some of the risk, and cross my fingers about the rest. I can exchange ideas with people on the internet for whatever we can glean about how to avoid risk, and maybe find some black humor on other days to keep this thing in perspective.
Otherwise, this could be really depressing if I dwell on it long enough. And we should really all try to avoid wasting too many of our days being depressed, esp. with our shortened-by-contaminants expiration dates:)
Comment by TC — May 10, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
Comment by Bee — May 10, 2007 @ 2:31 pm
Bee, God bless you.
Comment by Maureen — May 10, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
TC,
I rescued a pup this last week and named him Moon. I’m thinking of painting a picture of him surrounded by various moons and his sweet little French Pointer face shining through. That is how I try to gain perspective.
Watching butterflies and dragonflies helps much too and then there’s always the little green tree frogs.
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 2:37 pm
Get those per food packages, all safe per the FDA, ready to go and send that elected official love out into the world, ready to do good!
Who knew?
All this nasty stuff could turn so good?
None of us pet parents can afford a dime to political causes this year, things as they are, but we CAN send FDA safe food out into the world of those who failed us, to do good, and sleep well, knowing we have done our best!
Is this how Duane feels?
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 2:49 pm
Linda. Thanks for taking in and keeping that pup. I saw your story on another thread and I was glad that you picked it up but didn’t know you could keep it.
I ‘inherited’ a 3rd cat this week. My dear friend passed away from lung cancer. The only thing I could think to do when she was diagnosed was to tell her that if ever needed, I would take her cat so that she would have one less thing to worry about.
Timing stinks for new pets though doesn’t it?
Comment by Cynthia — May 10, 2007 @ 2:56 pm
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 2:37 pm
My dead pets will never see a tree frog .
my sick pets may never recover enough. to see a tree frog.
I plan to enjoy the tree frogs but also never to forget those who took it from my dead or sick or those PAID to try and disract me.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 2:57 pm
For anyone who is waiting on a valid number of pets dead or sick from FDA, dont hold your breath. Do you really think you will ever get numbers that truly represent what happened? No, you wont. Because what I see next is that any pet that has had another illness of any kind will be technically “thrown out” of their tally. Pets are like humans, a good portion of them will have other problems, such as hyper-thyroid, allergies, what have you and I am placing bets that FDA will not count those pets. Anyone want to raise me on my bet of 50 bucks?
Comment by Sandi K — May 10, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
Cynthia,
I’ve tried to find the owner and still am looking but so far no luck. My guess is that the pup jumped out the back of a pickup as I thought the pup was running after one but the guy started going so fast and then the pup just became so confused. (It’s illegal in Ca. to drive with a dog unrestrained in the back of a pick-up).The person probably doesn’t even know where he lost the pup - that’s my guess anyway. And then maybe they were going a little ways away or to another town, because it just makes no sense that there aren’t fliers out and I’ve visited all the shelters looking for a lost pet and all the vets in my area. I’m going to keep looking though but for now he has a home. I’ve also expanded my search to all of California on the internet and still nothing. So I figure maybe the person thought the pup died. That’s just a guess though.
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
The FDA will do as it must, so will I.
I am not waiting on the FDA to “do the right thing”. I am all too aware that ethics and manners mean nothing to the FDA.
Though, perhaps, more to the folks that raised the current FDA executive class.
Yo, FDA moms, proud of em are you?
What you will wait for, is a matter for you and your tolerance for stupidity to determine.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 3:10 pm
Cynthia - I didn’t even know what kind of a pup it was until I described him to my mailman. I thought he was a Walker Hound or something like that, but he’s for sure a pointer and quite the little rascal too. I have a pup Doberman that is almost the same age so the two play and play until both are totally exhausted and collapse around 9:00 pm.
Every morning I search Craig’s list and all the dog sites and still nothing - every newspaper ad around me too. It’s very odd.
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 3:17 pm
If your son, or daughter, worked for the FDA and was feeding this line of bull to the world, how proud would you be , as a parent, at what you had inflicted on the world?
Would you hold your head up high at the_ liar and proud of it _that you had raised or would you be a bit…ashamed?
Is this what YOUR mother told you public service meant?
I am all for it if this as good as it gets, but if you raised a child to hang on the public tit why not raise em to give a little something back?
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 3:29 pm
Thought I would share this with you all.
Lou Dobbs just slammed Dr. Acheson to the wall, then shook him like he was a rope toy. To paraphrase Mr. Dobbs, “He lied.” At a congressional hearing. Hope the good doctor sees Lou Dobbs take on him. Totally right on the money. It was blissful. Lou Dobbs Tonight should be on again at 6:00 p.m.
Comment by Maudigan — May 10, 2007 @ 3:33 pm
Good! I’ll watch it. That’s CNN right?
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 3:38 pm
Don’t know if this has been posted:
S. Korea has recalled China wheat glutnen AND US pet food
——
Thursday May 10, 2:27 PM
S.Korea recalls Chinese wheat gluten, U.S. pet food
SEOUL, May 10 (Reuters) - South Korean importers have recalled Chinese wheat gluten and some U.S. pet food after the deaths of animals in the United States due to contaminated pet food, the agriculture ministry said on Thursday.
CJ Corp. , South Korea’s major food and feed maker, recalled 42 tonnes of wheat gluten imported from China, although the wheat gluten was not tainted with the chemical melamine, it said.
A South Korean importer also recalled 899 kg of pet food imported from Natural Balance Pet Foods of the United States, which has used Chinese wheat gluten in making its products. Melamine, used in plastics and fertilizer, has turned up in wheat gluten and rice protein concentrate imported from China and shipped to various pet food manufacturers.
More than 100 brands of pet food in the United States have been recalled after reports of kidney failure in cats and dogs and several pet deaths.
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070510/3/31lis.html
Comment by Kat — May 10, 2007 @ 3:49 pm
Thanks, Kat, I updated our most recent post with that!
Comment by Christie Keith — May 10, 2007 @ 4:01 pm
SANDI K:Pets are like humans, a good portion of them will have other problems, such as hyper-thyroid, allergies, what have you and I am placing bets that FDA will not count those pets. Anyone want to raise me on my bet of 50 bucks?
Comment by Sandi K — May 10, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
**********************
And you can also bet that they won’t count older pets, especially cats because we ALL know that cats all die of kidney disease.
(Said with dripping sarcasm…)
They will cull and cull cases till they get close to the number they quoted for the first 6 weeks!
Comment by petlover — May 10, 2007 @ 4:04 pm
Yes Linda, CNN but Lou Dobbs Tonight isn’t airing again tonight, just looked at the giude. Going over to the CNN site right now to see if they posted tonights highlights and thank Mr. Dobbs for sharing my outrage at what we are feed. I am not sure this new postion the FDA created will be a lasting too long. FDA use his salary to investigate the people that called you with allege deaths and illness of their pets. Bet you could hire a bunch of bloggers to do this for a reasonnable price and get swift results and accurate numbers for the press. Just a thought.
Comment by Maudigan — May 10, 2007 @ 4:16 pm
The FDA DOES NOT HAVE the POWER to say my pets are dead, OK, ? I am fine with that because since they do NOT have that power then what do I CARE what they do?
I don’t.
I just included a grocery store in a class action suit and told them WHY they were included, because the FDA says the food on the shelves was safe and it was NOT, so that store and all the others involved can duke it out with the FDA.
Not my problem.
My problem is my dead and sick pets, the money I have spent on poisoned food and my general unhappiness with the folks who hang on my tax paying tit and do nothing for it!
Those folks are in trouble.
They have stepped in the dog doo so deep that there is no getting out.
I cannot say it clearer.
The FDA is useless, tits on a boar hog uselesss and what they do or do NOT do is not my concern anymore.
I do not pay a lot of mind to what cowflop on the road does either and I just step over it or get used to the stink on my boots. if that is how the FDA values themselves? , then who am I to argue?
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 4:36 pm
The one and only good thing that I take from the spin doctors of the FDA as well as from the Pet Food Industry is that they feel the need to use spin doctors.
Someone, or something, must have gotten them rattled.
Perhaps it is really happening that less people buy their errrrr product.
Perhaps the ‘hysteric bloggers’ who refuse to let the scandal die down quietly are slowly making ground, informing other people…
Good!
Comment by MaKo — May 10, 2007 @ 4:54 pm
The CONSUMER controls the marketplace!!!
BOYCOTT all pet and human food products containing wheat gluten, rice protein concentrate, any other vegetable protein concentrate (manufacturers will change the names, so be alert!) until they GUARANTEE that no melamine contamination exists!!
We owe it to our pets, we owe it to ourselves and to our children! Corporate and political posturing, circle-speak, and business-as-usual are no longer acceptable!!
The Gasping Canary!
Comment by Hal Weber — May 10, 2007 @ 4:59 pm
RE: Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 3:06 pm: “…So I figure maybe the person thought the pup died. That’s just a guess though.”
No, Linda. They dumped him.
BTW, if you do keep him, and if your Dobe is also a male, be prepared for some Battle Royales. A lot of Dobes (and other breeds)can be same-sex aggressive.
Comment by K9Rescue — May 10, 2007 @ 5:08 pm
Comments by Linda 2:37pm & Cynthia 2:56pm
Good for you ladies. That puppy and that kitty will love you dearly. Cynthia you did that lady proud by letting her go knowing her kitty will have a wonderful home.
Comment by VJ — May 10, 2007 @ 5:51 pm
I am NOT taking on any rescue animals, at all, for any reason this year.
I am happy to tell you why.
I spent a ton of money on vet bills and poisoned food and taxes that pay for people to lie to me.
And the food I buy, IF I buy any might well contain poison that means more vet bills, more food not used, more vomit, more pain for me and the animals.
NO, it stops here.
I have done rescue in the past, I will not do any longer.
The taxes I pay are supposed to pay for nuisance animal removal but they do not now cover that. If I care then I do it.
Now, I do not care.
As long as I get lied to then I do nothing to make it easy for the liars.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 6:43 pm
E — why don’t you turn your angry energy into something positive. We are all ‘turned up-side down’ by all of these events and to continue posting your anger will not help anything right now.
I have read a bunch of your posts — your wisdom and the way you address things in words for the world to see is just plain remarkable.
When I check the blog each day, I always look your way for a smile, a touch of wisdom, and a bunch of truth.
Don’t give all your wonderful qualities away to anger — please.
Comment by Sunshine — May 10, 2007 @ 6:56 pm
I will NOT rescue a pet, I won’t. Not while the people I pay taxes to, rest on the butt and lie to me.
The people across the street that will not neuter a cat?
I will call the rendering plant to get it from the street.
And it will go into pet food for those who simply do not care.
I will not lift a finger to save it.
Everytime people do this the powers that be say “oh the pets do not matter, there are so many, no one really cares about them and if they do then THOSE folks will take care of it.”
No more.
Let the dead and the sick stack up to the top of the doors they walk through to go to work on the government tit. I will NOT make it easy for you bastids to walk on by. And do nothing.
I will not donate a dime to any agency that is not out front warning pet parents of the signs and symptoms they needed to know, two months ago!
Humane Society?, off the list. Forever.
ASPCA, maybe, nothing in the will.
Local shelters, depends on the answer to the BIG question.
WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THE PETS WERE DYING?
Only question I need to ask, only answer I need to know.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 6:57 pm
I will not be a tool any longer, no rescues, not now maybe not ever.
The FDA has the smarts and the tools and the “official” way to do it, then they can have at it.
I have turned away neighbors, friends, and strangers and I will continue to do so.
They can take it up with the FDA and the people who poisoned my pets and got away with it.
THIS community resource is CLOSED!
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 7:01 pm
Sometimes when I come on this blog late at night for the first time all day, I ask questions about things that happened today. Not tonight. “E” summed it all up for me nicely.
Comment by Nabiya — May 10, 2007 @ 7:17 pm
The vet said my dobie would be at least 120 pounds and this pup should be no more than 70 so I hope that will settle any domination issues and I am training them both. So I do hope to avoid any ugly things but one never knows. They can always go for longs walks with me by the river - long walks seem to work magic.
It’s hard to imagine that they dumped this pup but I suppose that could happen or might have but he is so beautiful and smart.
Comment by Linda — May 10, 2007 @ 7:38 pm
Pups and kittens are easy to dump as long as suckers will take them in. When the animals die, painfully , in public and the stench of the death is in the nostrils of the public, THEN and only THEN does it become a matter to be dealt with.
Every animal you rescue, every animal _I_ rescued meant that at least another hundred died in agaony.
That is a hard truth but one we must face.
Where did Menu Foods get the 16 they killed?
How easy for them was it to find 16 or 160 throw aways?
We did that, made it easy for them.
And until there are a lot less animals to save, saving them is not possible.
Every act of compassion now is an act of cruelty for generations to come.
Comment by E. Hamilton — May 10, 2007 @ 7:57 pm
I personally will rescue 2 for every 1 that I have lost.
Comment by elliott — May 10, 2007 @ 8:06 pm
Is this really E. that is here?
Comment by elliott — May 10, 2007 @ 8:09 pm
Linda - congrats on the addition to your family:) I haven’t ever seen a French pointer; but my two dogs are German Shorthair pointers, and I enjoy any pointer’s “point of view”, lol. We just out-rode a violent thunderstorm here (shut down my computer when the radio started crackling!), sun came back out, and we took the dogs for a walk in the still storm charged air. And speaking of frogs, it is that time of night when the spring-fed pond frogs loudly remind us of how lucky we are to have water here in the high desert.
Perspective is a sanity helper, and I too got a good dose of it tonight:)
Comment by TC — May 10, 2007 @ 8:18 pm
E. I wish there was that one thing to say to you here tonight that would ease your suffering, hurt and sorrow. That is coming out in a rage. Vent, many of us are on the emotional roller coaster ride this recall scandal has ripped through our life’s. We lost dearly beloved companions that were one day healthy and then sickened/dieing or dead in a manner of a few days. That hurt will never ever leave my heart. I still a month later almost stagger to my knees when I think of the reality of my dog’s death, posioned, by his dog food, that I bought, feed him…..
So I understand getting up on your soap box, you have a courage to do so that I can not muster.
Bravo! Hopefully you will be back on par soon, making me frightened to drink anything while reading the blogs in fear of ruining my computer in one spewing gush of laughter. Many of us have come to expect this of you, summing up our feelings into words with graceful sarcasm, bitter truths and realities. Thank you E.
You have been a blessing to me.
Comment by Maudigan — May 10, 2007 @ 9:00 pm
Maureen, that’s certainly a possibility that the more the FDA lets out about its tests, the sooner they can be defeated. However, if someone’s smart enough to find a way to do that chemically, then it’s not a group of nonreading, uneducated people we’ve been lead to believe who are doing this.
Comment by CathyA — May 11, 2007 @ 5:37 am
Comment by Maudigan — May 10, 2007 @ 9:00 pm
Well said Maudigan. Our cat died on March 11th and the heartbreak to this day is so severe, it takes my breath away when I think about her last moments. It was the most horrible thing I have yet to encounter and I am hesitant to get a new pet again. May I say you and E. both have been a great help to me (along with many others here). I dont know if Pet Connection knows they contain good therapy for alot of us.
Comment by Sandi K — May 11, 2007 @ 6:24 am
TC -
My Moon Dog Pup looks like a Walker Hound or Fox hound but isn’t. So, my mailman said he was a pointer but is not spotted or dappled and is too tall for a beagle but has the same face but larger - so I searched the web for hunting dogs and he looks just like the French Pointer so that is the closest thing I could come up with.
I love the high desert being born and lived near Mojave - no man’s land - and even today take long drives over the Sierras into the Desert on the back side of Yosemite. Something about the desert just sticks to one’s soul and no matter where you live - a little bit of it is always there - and after a rain, nothing could be better.
Comment by Linda — May 11, 2007 @ 7:26 am
There is excellent new article this morning, but containing some horrible descriptions of when reporter was in China and saw first-hand how Chinese think of/treat cats and dogs - article is by Georgie Anne Geyer at Yahoo News. Read it and weep! (sorry, i don’t know how to do the tiny urls) Article is about demanding safe imported foods.
Comment by CherCat — May 11, 2007 @ 8:47 am
Linda - I just have to say that I just looked up the french pointer online. And was surprised to see that those dogs look exactly like my german shorthairs (the nose is a bit more square in some photos than a GSP, our chests seem a bit deeper & broader, but goodness so similiar!). If your Moon has the personality, sense of humor, and boundless energy that my pointers do, you are soooo in for some real fun:)
P.S. it is nice to connect with a person who knows what I mean about the high desert - and the Mojave is even more the real deal.
Comment by TC — May 11, 2007 @ 8:55 am
TC - oh yeah about the boundless energy and enthusiam too. He is quite the character and is Mr. Vocal too - this weekend I’m taking both pups to Old Sacramento to just roam around so they get used to people and sights of a busy world.
Our family were gold miners - the blasting kind - and we lived in what is now “Red Rock Canyon State Park” in an area called Dove Springs but is now an off road vehicle play ground. My Grandfather also rode horseback checking on the aquaduct water that streamed down to L.A. Sometimes I dream of going back and living in no-mans land again, maybe I will when I retire.
Here’s a link of the French Pointer and pretty much matches what my pup looks like - but at 45 pounds and 5 months old. Moon has brown on his face and ears and mostly white with large black spots. He is sure a champ. http://www.pointerclub.net/
Comment by Linda — May 11, 2007 @ 9:11 am
I saw the footage of Catalina burning and the evucation and there was no mention of the pets -and I hope they weren’t just left to run to the beach - and covered with burning ash. So frightful and I know those ferries didn’t let the dogs and cats come along too - tragic shame.
Comment by Linda — May 11, 2007 @ 10:46 am
I’m so concerned about the pets on Catalina that I contacted the Catalina Humane Society and got a recording that directed evacuees to the Pasadena Humane Society for instructions on what to do with your pets. So I am very curious, given the horrible outcome during Katrina, what is being done on Catalina. I sent an e-mail as I didn’t want to tie up their phone lines if they are helping these desperate people. I’ll post what I learn late tonight.
Comment by Linda — May 11, 2007 @ 11:27 am
I didn’t want to post this on the main thread - as it is such a side track and there’s so much good stuff going on there.
I do imagine that the people on Catalina have access to more information - but the electrictiy was out so I don’t even know if they have phone service or did know what to do with their pets during this fire.
But The Humane Society on Avalon tells you to call Pasadena Humane Society for pet evacuation emergencies (If you need to leave the island and have a pet) and they give a number, then when you call Pasadena you have to listen to alot of options on the phone message and then transfers to many people who don’t know anything. Finally, I did reach one person who said that Avalon is no longer in danger. And everyone can take their dogs on the Ferry as long as the dogs are muzzled and cats in a carrier case. So I suppose that all one needs are lots of muzzles or at least a make shift one would do too.
The news on the web said 4,000 were asked to evacuate and that’s a lot of different houses and situations.
But what seemed odd is that Avalon told you to call Pasadena and Pasadena knew nothing about what one should do - they had to find someone and ask - and put you on hold for several minutes - and wait and wait?????? Probably everyone already knew all they needed were muzzles and it’s just me fretting that had a hard time finding out what to do.
Comment by Linda — May 11, 2007 @ 1:44 pm