Standing tall for little dogs
By Gina Spadafori
May 5, 2007
Author Mark Derr (“A Dog’s History of America”
I embrace the changing dog demographics. They present a welcome opportunity to bury old stereotypes and restore small dogs to their rightful place in canine history. Although popularity usually attracts commercial breeders who mass produce poor-quality dogs, I would hope that buyers would deal only with responsible breeders trying to produce healthy, defect-free dogs.
Here’s the piece. That last point is very important, because these little guys are very popular with the puppy mills and clueless backyard breeders.
What happens when you buy from these people? Not only have you endorsed bad businesses with your money, you’re also on the hook with a dog who’s neurotic and sick. Check out Dr. Khuly’s take on the trend toward teeny-tiny dogs over on Dolittler.
Yay!
I own a Papillon bred by a Responsible Breeder, and so this topic is very near and dear to my heart.
Yes, small dogs are - well - *dogs*! And that’s a message EVERYONE needs to comprehend - not the least of which the growing number of small dog owners.
On top of Dr. Khuly’s concerns about the convoluted ramifications of “small dog as fashion accessory” (a subject that gets my blood boiling almost as furiously as our recent spate of “enhanced” pet food ingredients) is the notion some folks get that small dogs don’t need to be trained because they’re small.
“Well if he misbehaves, I just pick him up.”
To which I say Thank you very much for perpetuating all the anti-small-dog sentiment fallout that now *I* have to endure and keep even more of an eye to my little guy’s safety and protection against those who think he’s not a “real” dog, or how much fun it is to sic their big ‘real’ dog onto him and so forth. As if I don’t have ENOUGH to worry about keeping the eyes in the back of my head as well as everywhere else on the alert whenever I take him out in public.
Yup. Responsible Dog Ownership is Responsible Dog Ownership, no matter how big or small your fur-critter is!
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 5, 2007 @ 7:38 am
http://www.chemnutra.com/feed.htm
Comment by Steve — May 5, 2007 @ 7:40 am
No argument about the teeny-tinies…Back in the early nineties, my folks got a “teacup” Yorkie - 4 lbs - she was the runt of the litter, and they just fell in love with her. She was a real sweetie, but she ended up with luxating patella problems, severe skin allergies, collapsing trachea, neurological problems in the rear legs, anxiety - you name it. My parents probably could’ve put another kid through college on what they spent on her over the years.
They loved her very much, but when it came time to get another dog, they said “nothing under six pounds.” They now have a happy, healthy, 15 pound rescued poodle mix.
I love small dogs, though. I have one big lab and one small terrier mix - they’re both ALL dog, just different manifestations of what it is to be canine. Our big dog is calm, sweet, and happy. Our little guy is a busy, playful snuggle machine. I adore them both. :)
Comment by Laura — May 5, 2007 @ 7:56 am
Regarding “Reputable Breeders”, it is a valiant goal, but not very practical. When my wife and I first decided to get a Westie, we contacted the local AKC Westie breed club, and they provided a list of five “reputable breeders”. We called two breeders on the list, and they both told us they don’t breed pets, they only breed show dogs. We left messages with two others, and they never called back. The fifth breeder said that he already had homes for all of the puppies he expected from his next two upcoming litters. But he suggested that we attend an upcoming Westie Club event.
The Westie Club event was very interesting. All the “reputable breeders” were there. And except for the breeder who invited us, they acted like characters out of the movie “Best in Show”. They seemed far more interested in status and awards than in the actual health or care of the dogs.
Our alternatives was to wait on a list for the one “reputable breeder” who actually seemed reputable, or take a chance with a breeder not on the Westie Club list, with no real way of knowing if they were “reputable” or “back-yard” breeders.
In the end, we ended up adopting a Westie from a local rescue shelter. We have no idea if he came from a reputable breeder or a pet store. Nor do we care. It is not like we love him less or would send him back to the shelter if he were a pet store dog.
Comment by Mike — May 5, 2007 @ 8:09 am
You’re absolutely right: Some breeders who are in fact “reputable” in terms of producing healthy, well-adjusted dogs have all the warmth of rattlesnakes when it comes to talking to puppy-buyers.
I could tell you stories … oh yes, I could!
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 5, 2007 @ 8:15 am
Just like in feeding your pets, the responsibility ultimately comes down to *you*.
I’ve spent years talking to people who want an “easy foolproof method” of how to find a breeder to buy from. When I begin talking about the time and the effort and the research (and the personal investment in decision-making skills and critical thinking) that it takes, they back off - horrified. They want the process of finding a breeder and buying their dog to be as easy as the process of buying a bag of kibble and dumping it in the food bowl every night.
Well I’m sorry. It doesn’t work that way. The range of breeders that are out there - from wonderful to horrible - is almost limitless. So it DOES take some effort to winnow through them (and yes - you end up talking to some real “pieces of work” along the way). Responsible Breeders DO show their dogs, so dealing with the whole “show mentality” thing comes with the package, too. But they are not ALL out of the “Best in Show” movie. You have to be mature enough to look past that.
None of this is meant to detract from the wonderful rescue dogs out there that got a less-than-stellar start in life. But you know what? If all breeders really and truly were Responsible Breeders (and yes - I recognize that will never actually happen) then there would be NO dogs in rescue. Because a really and truly Responsible Breeder accepts the responsibility for the lives they have produced for that animals’ entire lifetime.
Until then, we need both the caring people who provide homes for the dogs that landed in Rescue AND the Responsible Breeders hoping to create a world where Rescue will never be needed.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 5, 2007 @ 8:39 am
Comment by The OTHER Pat:
I too would like to encourage anyone seeking a purebreed dog to at least look at breed rescue dogs as a first option. Also, though puppies are wonderful, please also consider a juvenile or adult dog. You’ll have a better idea of any health or behavioral issues by that point and they are often housetrained, know some commands, etc.
Comment by Eva — May 5, 2007 @ 9:27 am
Pat —
The process of finding a “reputable” breeder is time-consuming, but it is also almost impossible for most people. There are no verifiable standards and no certifying organizations.
The AKC Club route doesn’t work, as I tried to show by my example above. In my example, the Club list of “reputable breeders” is essentially a list of club members who are also breeders. The Club does not verify the breeders (other than have them sign a piece of paper that the agree to certain principles). The number of breeders are too few for the average person to get a dog. And the show-mentality creates an elisist attitude against pets which further limits the availability of puppies.
So what is the average person to do?
Going to the AKC Club essentially means not getting a dog.
Investigating breeders on your own is hit or miss, because the average person is not going to aquire the expertise nor have access to information to determine if a breeder is a “reputable breeder” or “backyard breeder”. Sure, I can ask the questions in the above link. But if I can gain enough knowledge to determine the correct answers, then a “backyard breeder” can gain enough knowledge to give the correct answers.
In theory, the “reputable breeder” path is admirable. In reality, it is almost impossible to follow. That is why so many people buy pet store dogs or dogs from “non-reputable” breeders. The people aren’t evil, lazy, or hate dogs. It is just that most don’t have a real, viable way to get a puppy from a reputable breeder.
Comment by Mike — May 5, 2007 @ 9:44 am
One thing to keep in mind also when looking for a breeder, if you are going to show breeders, chances are their pups will be socialized for the show ring, not for a family pet. There is a big difference. We adopted a 13 month old show dog and when she came into the family atmosphere with 2 rough and tumble pets, I truly believe she was horrified. It took nearly a year before she fully meshed into the “pack”. Now she can get out and chase a ball or dig in the dirt with the best of em.
Btw Pat, I have Paps too..they’re great aren’t they!
Comment by Sandy C — May 5, 2007 @ 9:56 am
When my husband and I decided to get a dog, we had HORRIBLE experiences with breeders (folks that wanted $2,000 for a retired show dog that wasn’t housebroken), snobby attitudes, etc, so rather than take that effort into researching BREEDERS, we took that time and researched DOGS.
We then looked on PetFinder and then took the time to meet local rescue dogs that fit our criteria.
We ended up with a 5 month old Border Collie/Shiba Inu mix and then took the rest of the money we would have spent on the retired show dog and spent it instead on private dog training classes with the local vet school’s canine behavoir professor.
Now, we have a 5 year old dog who is a joy to be with no matter where we go.
Spent the time, effort and money on the dog, rather than the breeder — it pays off beautifully in your life together.
Comment by Dorene — May 5, 2007 @ 10:52 am
I get it. The world isn’t perfect.
I also get that many people put more time, effort and research into the purchase of their next stereo than they put into the purchase of their next dog.
Yup. There isn’t a set of “rules” you can follow for finding the perfect breeder (or dog). But that’s because breeders and dogs are living things - infinitely variable. Unlike a stereo, which comes out of a factory. So “rules” are harder.
Seriously, after a spate of posts on an email list I used to belong to regarding how long it took and how “impossible” it was to find a dog from a Responsible Breeder, one poster did an informal survey on how long people looked before finding their dog.
The results were something like 7 weeks. One of the most vocally comlaining posters had spent only 3 weeks on her search before finally giving up and getting her puppy from a pet store.
People’s time scale gets really skewed when they really *want* something, and especially in our “instant information” age, expectations have gotten unrealistic. I remember one gal complaining bitterly that a breeder “never” emailed her back on her inquiries. I asked how long she had waited. “A whole two days!”.
Um. Not only was that a SERIOUSLY short time to wait, but if you email a Responsible Breeder - who needs to prove the “breed worthinness” of her dogs at a dog show - on a Friday - do you suppose she just might possibly not even be HOME during those two days?
Yup. I have run into lots and lots of impatient dog and puppy buyers. And this is why backyard breeders and petstores keep on doing such a booming business. They have what impatient people want, and they have it NOW.
Mike, I realize that for someone unfamiliar with the breeding community, it’s difficult to find information. But there ARE a lot of people who don’t have a vested interest (as a breeder) and who are very willing to help. The Internet has been a huge boon. Start joining email lists with the goal of finding one populated by *serious* afficiandos of the breed, and the knowledge available there will be invaluable. Knowledge you can take with you as you begin meeting breeders (some of whom you may identify on those same lists) and using your critical judgement to begin sifting through the “BS factor” to find someone you can trust and work with in finding the right dog for you.
Because really, what are the alternatives? Rescues and shelters are great, and don’t interpret anything I say as putting them down. But wouldn’t it be great if they weren’t needed any more?
Unfortunately, for those who choose to buy from a breeder, every time they support a breeder who is NOT a Responsible Breeder, they’re just helping to ensure that the need for Rescue will never go away.
Is that the alternative you really prefer?
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 5, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 5, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
Pat, I get what you’re saying. But Mike has a serious point.
Not everyone who gets frustrated by “reputable breeders” is an impatient person who doesn’t care. Many are just stymied by unresponsive, goaltending dog-show divas (sorry, but it’s true more often than not) who are far more interested in earning points on the dogs they’re keeping than in finding homes for those they aren’t. That’s just human nature.
You said [snip]:
“The Internet has been a huge boon. Start joining email lists with the goal of finding one populated by *serious* afficiandos of the breed, and the knowledge available there will be invaluable.”
I tried that. My retired mother, after much research, decided she wanted a Norwich. The only breeders who would call her back were the ones you could pretty much ID as puppy mills. So to help her find a good one, I joined several breed fancy/ breeder listservs - for an entire YEAR, not two days or seven weeks.
What I learned was NOTHING - zip, nada. Lots of cute stories about trips to shows and points for this dog or that. But no one would talk, on or off list, about breeders, good or bad, or give referrals, even when simply and politely asked.
Mom did get a dog, by the way - not from a breeder, but from a rescue group, folks who actually have a stake in placing dogs in good homes. Her new dog isn’t a Norwich, it’s a poodle mix, and it will have the kind of life and love any dog would kill for. So who lost out on that one? That’d be the breed.
And your whole issue about getting rid of rescue by using reputable breeders - excuse me?! Last I heard, no breeders were taking in any of the mutts that make up most of the American dog population. This ain’t a choice between responsible breeders and shelters, and to posit it that way is simplistic and irresponsible.
I personally know several smart, dedicated, patient people who’ve tried and failed to buy dogs from AKC-recommended breeders. They went elsewhere, hating it and crossing their fingers all the way. What choice did they have? How many years is it appropriate to wait for one of your state’s 5 or 6 given breeders of ____ deign to return their calls?
If breeders really care about that, maybe they ought to think about responding to inquiries. If they continue to refuse to work with people who want to give their pups good homes, then what grounds do they have for complaining when those people they ignore go elsewhere?
Comment by Laura — May 5, 2007 @ 8:43 pm
There’s a huge disconnect between what good breeders think they’re doing — protecting the breed and being responsible for the dogs they bring into the world — and how’s that’s perceived by puppy-buyers.
Good breeders ask more questions of you than can think of to ask them. But it comes across as “grilling,” and people get upset and insulted. They *know* in their minds they’re “worthy,” whether they’re a good fit for the breed or a particular puppy or not.
The breeder’s job is to say “no,” if the placement isn’t right. That hurts a lot of feelings and drives people to puppy mills and backyard breeders.
I don’t have an easy answer. Good breeders should still say “no,” more than they say “yes,” and should still be working to place their puppies properly. But they ought to frame their “no” in educational ways, and offer ways to get to “yes.”
It’s not all about dog-show divas. Those people NEED pet puppy buyers to keep the show puppies on the campaign trail. But they’re just really, really bad about bridging the gap.
So … good breeders need to do more educating and helping.
And puppy-buyers need to realize it’s not all about what THEY want, when THEY want it.
A little more understanding on both sides would be good for dogs, and bad for puppy mills.
Comment by Gina Spadafori — May 5, 2007 @ 9:01 pm
Gina, I totally agree with the grilling issue - but the four folks I personally know who went through this in the past two years couldn’t even get a return call, let alone a grilling!
I don’t have a doubt in my mind that any of these folks would have made good owners for the breeds they wanted, but even if that were the case, I’m sure each and every one would have been receptive to hearing why they *wouldn’t* have been. They never got that far!
Perhaps it’s heresy to say this, but from the outside of the biz, it looks like a very few “reputable breeders” in each state limit the puppies of their breed available, thereby raising the prices of their own stock. (And I’m not talking about fad breeds, like Chis or Dalmations, but pretty much any breed not in the top five.)
Surely not all breeders are either angels or devils? It seems like a no-brainer that some reputable breeders could breed good - not show-quality, maybe, but sound, healthy and hardy - puppies with a spay/neuter requirement?
That’s what a lot of folks are doing in their backyards anyway. They aren’t mills, they’re hobbyists, but many lack the connections and the cash to break into the exclusive world of AKC breeding. They’d like to do better, but don’t always know how.
If AKC really is about the “love of the purebred dog,” as advertised, then why not reach out to, educate, and certify some of these folks, rather than leaving consumers with a choice between a high-priced show breeder who won’t return their calls or going to a puppy mill? Let ‘em grill like crazy, and say no more than yes. But maybe they’d call back.
Comment by Laura — May 5, 2007 @ 9:31 pm
AKC is all about earning money from registrations and staying solvent, which is why they attempted to crawl into bed with a deal between Petland and the US’s largest commercial mill breeder, the Hunte Corporation, last year. AKC is not motivated in reducing the number of puppymills and commercial breeders as registration fees are their primary source of revenue.
The Internet is awash with less than reputable breeders that post artistically posed puppy photos, do no genetic health testing, take money orders and credit cards and ship anywhere. Puppies sold by these people are the ones that end up in breed rescues. Rarely does a dog from a reputable breeder end up in Rescue, because they take them back! A good breeder fosters and maintains a relationship with the puppy buyer so if their circumstances change, the dog can be returned to the breeder.
Since most good breeders rarely have more than 1 or 2 litters a year if that, and their goals are not to market their puppies to the average consumer looking for a pet and make money from the sale of their stock, they could care less about answering an email from someone who wants a dog to match their decor. If they do sell you a pup, it will be already speutered. It takes years to develop a good show/performance line, and reputable breeders are in no hurry to place their pups with anybody just because they have a Mastercard.
A dog is not a pair of shoes, or a Versace ensemble or a big screen TV. A dog is a living, breathing sentient entity, and time needs to be invested on the part of the puppy buyer to research the breed and cultivate a breeder. Getting a dog is not about instant gratification, and the onus is on the buyer, not the breeder. You may think that unfair, but that’s the way it is.
Comment by Deb — May 6, 2007 @ 4:05 am
Laura — thanks for understanding the point I was trying to make.
Without a viable way to find reputable breeders who actually will sell pets, people have no choice but to take a chance with “backyard breeders” or pet stores. It is the practices of the AKC and their breed clubs which keep the backyard breeders and puppy mills in business.
If the AKC (or ASPCA or Humane Society) were truely interested in directing would-be puppy parents to reputable breeders, they would have a program in place to certify breeders and direct people to them. (And the certification should be more than just requiring the breeder to join the AKC — there should be real standards of health and care for the dogs, not just joining a dog fancy club.)
Comment by Mike — May 6, 2007 @ 5:29 am
Laura, breeding is easy. All you need is two intact individuals - one of each sex. It doesn’t take much at all just to “make puppies”. So what criteria do you propose these “civic-minded breeders” would have in mind when breeding those puppies “just to sell”? Because remember - breeding only happens under one of two scenarios:
1) The completely random “Oops! I wasn’t watching and they got together!” scenario (Free-roaming strays that breed count as a variant on this one.)
or
2) “I think I will put THESE two together to make some puppies.” scenario.
In #1, the dogs decide. In #2, some human being decides. It’s really that simple. So which scenario do you propose should be the one we strive towards?
Me - I kinda’ think Scenario #2 makes more sense. I love dogs, but as decision-makers, they aren’t always up to the task.
So SOMEONE is deliberately selecting two dogs to combine (breed). There is SOMETHING that enters into that decision. You “Want one just like Rover”, or you “Like the way the spots are on that dog” or “That dog can REALLY get the sheep - I’m gonna breed him!” or “She has LOTS of puppies in her litters - what a money-maker” or “These two are the easiest to catch - I’ll breed THEM” or (and the list goes on). But this IS what “Selective breeding” is. And if breeding is to occur, it is the ONLY choice available other than “random breeding”.
So what are the breeding criteria used in selective breeding, and who gets to make them? And how are the consequences of the various ways that question can be answered going to be dealt with? Some of the answers to these questions are what have evolved into the current system of show breeding (and please don’t equate that to AKC whenever I bring up the word “show”. AKC is an organization. Breeders are people. I’m talking about the *people* in this discussion.) Show breeding is about setting criteria - and therefore limitations - on what can be bred and so - by extension - who can do the breeding.
If the system of dog shows hadn’t evolved. some other system of setting criteria would have (and has, in some areas of the world) and the whole question of who gets to own and breed specific dogs would STILL be at issue (and is).
As to your characterization of “simplistic and irresponsible” my statement that in a world where the only breeders were Responsible Breeders - I couldn’t disagree more. Have you noticed that I use the term “Responsible Breeders” rather than “reputable breeders”? That is because the whole definition of “Responsible Breeders” encompasses the idea that this person - a Responsible Breeder - accepts the *responsibility* for each life they have brought into the world. Each and every one.
If you buy a dog from a Responsible Breeder and find you can no longer keep that dog, the Responsible Breeder will take that dog back and keep or re-home it. I know Responsible Breeders who have taken back dogs from 4 months old to 14 YEARS old. That’s what a Responsible Breeder does. Which helps you understand why they are so particular about where they place their dogs. Once placed, they hope to never have to take that dog back again. So a Responsible Breeder tries to find the best possible FOREVER home for that dog.
And that is why in world - idealistic though it might be - where the ONLY breeders were Responsible Breeders - the need for Rescue would ultimately go away.
I like being idealistic. It gives human beings something to strive for, especially when we are charged with making decisions on behalf of those who cannot make those decisions for themselves.
Gina is absolutely correct that a lot of show breeders do a lousy job of bridging the gap between what they know and what the seeking puppy-buyers are trying to learn. And believe me, I’ve beat my head against a wall bloody in talking some of these breeders. They’re hurting their own cause, and they just don’t seem to be able to see it.
But no matter what the solution is (if indeed one exists), it must always take into account the objective of not adding to the burden of shelter and Rescue organizations if that can be avoided.
And always - ALWAYS - it must not be about what we *want* nearly as much as it is about what is in the best interests of the *dog*.
We act on their behalf. We must always strive to do so responsibly.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 6, 2007 @ 5:41 am
Mike, people ALWAYS have a choice. They have a choice NOT to do businsess with a breeder who is in it for the wrong reasons, no matter how frustrated they may have become with the alternatives.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 6, 2007 @ 5:51 am
I recently did what some here are saying is impossible—got a dog from a RESPONSIBLE BREEDER.
I started in January, with the decision that I wanted a dog, a small dog who’d fit my small house with no yard, be a good walking companion, and get along with my two cats. I read some books of dog breed descriptions, did some internet research, and found a couple of shows to go to.
At those shows, I talked to breeders and exhibitors, people who had the breeds I thought might be a good fit. Everyone who wasn’t actually primping their dog for the ring at that moment was happy to talk about their breed, its strengths and drawbacks, and what I was looking for in a dog. Some of them told me, no, their breed wasn’t what I was looking for (specifically, because of my cats.) They made suggestions of other breeds. I wound up with a short list: miniature poodle, which I had considered before, and the Chinese Crested, which I’d never even heard of before. At that point, I started calling and emailing breeders who’d been recommended to me. They took, in some cases, up to a week to get back to me.
In the end, I had long coversations with people in five states. I went to some more shows. I learned more about the dogs, and I got breeders’ opinions of other breeders. And I got refocused from a puppy to a young adult. At the end of March, I adopted a year-old Chinese Crested Powderpuff bitch, originally sold as a show dog, but returned to her breeder as having become too big, an inch over the standard, to be show quality. Not at all what I thought I was looking for, except for size, but for me, just about perfect. She’s sweet, eager to please, great to walk with, great with my cats—exactly what I was looking for.
That’s my most recent experience with a Responsible Breeder. One of my cats is a Maine Coon, my second from that breeder, my sister has a Lab who, similarly to my Crested, lost her chance at show-ring fame for being the wrong size (in her case, too small). And years ago I had a marvelous Cocker Spaniel.
I’ve never found responsible breeders all that hard to deal with. You do have to remember that, especially in the small breeds, litters may be small and all the puppies might be spoken for before they’re born—the breeder you want to do business with may have a long waiting list. And it’s good to remember that being a good breeder means being a bit obsessive about details, so you’re likely to find you’re dealing with somewhat obsessive people. But, in my experience, generally friendly, obsessive people.
But it’s really helpful to approach them by asking about their breed, rather than by asking right off if they have any puppies (or kittens) for sale.
Comment by Lis — May 6, 2007 @ 7:51 am
Congratulations Lis, that’s exactly how to find a dog from a responsible breeder! Well done!!!!!
If there were more people like yourself who bothered to go about finding a purebred dog as you did, there would be no need for this discussion!
Comment by Deb — May 6, 2007 @ 8:14 am
There are fantastic mutts out there — if you aren’t finding what you want from a breeder, do the research on dogs.
PetFinder is a tremendous resource — take the time to get to know the rescue/shelter mutts in your area. Pick your dog its personality, rather than what it looks like.
I didn’t even know what a Shiba Inu was when we got our Border Collie/Shiba Inu mix — we needed a herding dog to help me outdoors and to keep up with my husband, the marathon runner.
After research dog types, getting advice from my vet (not all dogs can keep up on marathon training runs) and meeting lots of rescue dogs that met our criteria, we settled on a particular litter. We spent time with that litter and picked out Pepper because although she was the plainest in the litter, she seemed the most interested in people — which was another quality we wanted.
Having a mix means that she has a funny-looking tail for a Border Collie (it’s pure Shiba Inu), she’s big for a Shiba, but small for a Border Collie and the suspicion of strangers is hightened (she literally takes every day of 6 weeks to decide if she likes someone of not — the trainer told me she isn’t shy — she’s actively thinking about it and she won’t be rushed — I tell folks she’s shy because it’s easier to explain to folks on the street!). Otherwise, she’s pure herding dog — we know what to expect and everything’s fine.
My neighbor, after careful research, decided that she wanted a Pomeranian. Like us, she couldn’t find a breeder that would give her the time of day or just quoted her a price in the thousands of dollars to make her go away. (her last dog was a very happy beagle who lived 17 wonderful years, so it wasn’t like she wasn’t a great dog owner). She went on PetFinder, took some time and found what we thought was a Pomeranian with deformed front legs in the local shelter.
Dot’s a great dog — after some more research, we now think she’s a Pom/Long-Haired Chihuahua mix, but it totally doesn’t matter — she loves playing with Pepper, she loves going on walks around town and being a mix, rather than a purebreed just doesn’t impact my neighbor’s life at all.
Give the mutts a chance!
Comment by Dorene — May 6, 2007 @ 10:10 am
Mutts can be great dogs, but if you know you need certain characteristics—size, a particular type of coat, whatever—sometimes you can’t get that from a mutt. If you want a puppy, well, in the northeast, we’ve made huge progress in persuading pet owners to actually spay/neuter their pets. If you’re not prepared to gamble on what kinds of baggage a shelter dog may have, you maybe be better off going to a breeder.
But if what you want is just a good dog to be a companion, and you’re willing to gamble a bit on size and coat, or take an older dog that may have some issues you need to work on, you can get a great pet. I had the perfect dog when I was a kid, and she was a border collie mix from whatever shelter it was that my father took me to.
And yeah, once you’ve got the Right Dog, lineage doesn’t matter. (Unless you’re planning to breed or show, or compete in some other AKC events, but those are separate issues.)
Comment by Lis — May 6, 2007 @ 11:59 am
“Mike, people ALWAYS have a choice. They have a choice NOT to do businsess with a breeder who is in it for the wrong reasons, no matter how frustrated they may have become with the alternatives.”
Pat, you misunderstand my point. I’m not saying that people choose to do business with the wrong breeders, I’m saying that most people have no way of knowing who is a wrong breeder.
The AKC Club list of “reputable breeders” is really just a list of breeders who are club members. Being in a dog fancy club doesn’t make a breeder responsible. There is no verification that the breeders are actually interested in the health and well-being of the dogs.
There are are no standards or independent verification of breeders. There is no reasonable way for the average person to tell if a breeder is responsible or not.
Comment by Mike — May 6, 2007 @ 4:37 pm
Why do you suppose Lis was able to do it?
I have run into too many people who DID succeed in learning how to make the contacts and sort the wheat from the chaff via joining discussion lists and engaging their critical thinking skills to believe it cannot be done.
And just so you know I “put my money where my mouth is” - I have spent literally hundreds of hours writing posts to such people who are trying to learn. Answering questions, directing them to resources, helping them to evaluate what they’re finding (without telling them what to do). And although I do not exhibit dogs, I have given over entire weekends to attending shows with people who aren’t quite sure how to begin the dialogue. I don’t do this for everyone who asks me, of course (G!) but I DO help where I can.
Again - Lis is walking proof that it CAN be done, and I am walking proof that not every discussion list out there is a black hole of disinformation.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 6, 2007 @ 5:21 pm
Maybe Lis got lucky, or maybe she just thinks the breeder was responsible, or maybe she was able to find a rare breeder who was able to demonstrate their responsibility.
How does a typical person really know that the breeder they get their dog from is actually responsible and cares for their dogs in a healthful and sanitary method.
Most breeder will not allow potential buyers to review the veterinary records of the breeder (other than records for the puppy in question and certification of no genetic disorders). And even if allowed to look at vet records, most people don’t know what to look for.
Likewise, most breeders won’t allow potential buyers to conduct a sanitary inspection, and even if they did, most people wouldn’t know what to look for.
The AKC puts a lot of effort into breed standards. They should put a little effort into breeder standards, and independent expert verification that breeders actually meet those standards.
Comment by Mike — May 6, 2007 @ 6:11 pm
You’re asking about High Volume Breeders. Most home hobbyist breeders are more than happy to have you come over and meet their dogs (it also gives them a chance to meet you and do some ‘real time evaluation” as to your suitability as a potential owner of one of their dogs.)
But for better or for worse, AKC bowed to public pressure a number of years ago and issued their infamous High Volume Breeders report. It was one step in a chain of mis-steps that got more than a few of us more than a little upset with the organization. Which is why I’m focussing the discussion on the *breeders* rather than on the *AKC*.
But FYI, here’s the AKC High Volume Breeders Report:
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/about/.....finalA.pdf
Maybe tomorrow I’ll have more energy for a rational continuation of this discussion.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 6, 2007 @ 6:49 pm
Pat — my comments are more directed to the “backyard breeders”, small volume breeders with less than 3 breeding females, producing 1 to 2 litters per year. The are more than willing to meet with potential owners and do everything that a “reputable breeder” will do. For the average person, there is no way to differentiate backyard breeders from reputable breeders, or determine which actually care for the health of the dogs.
The AKC report you listed actually seemed like steps in the right direction (though not going far enough, especially since there was no focus on small volume breeders). It was refreshing to see the AKC recognize that their actions created the market for puppy mills, and that the AKC needs to take a leadership position. What ever happened to the recommendations, and why did it get you upset with the AKC?
Comment by Mike — May 7, 2007 @ 4:17 am
The idea of having someone in charge to set the rules of who gets the “Breeders Seal of Approval” (for purposes of this discussion I’ll abrreviate as “BSOA”) and who does not sounds like a good idea at first. But like all good ideas, you really need to think it through and consider not just HOW to implement it, but the ramifications of doing so as well.
Let’s say you’re going to begin issuing BSOAs to approved breeders. Okay. WHO gets to do the issuing, WHAT CRITERIA do they base those decisions on, and who gets to DECIDE which criteria are the ones to be used?
It’s not always that easy to get conscientious animal folks to agree on what’s “right” and what’s “wrong” when it comes to the proper care and keeping of our furkids. Take - for example - ear cropping or tail docking. Or maybe debarking or declawing. All four of these subjects are sure-fire guaranteed ways to start World War III on any discussion list you bring them up on, and you will find caring, conscientious, RESPONSIBLE animal folks standing up and offering very good arguments on BOTH sides of each issue. So how do you find the “right” answer?
Okay. Let’s take something obvious and easy. Spay and neuter of pet-quality animals. EVERYONE agrees with that, right?
Not necessarily. In many European countries, the culture is against ANY kind of artificial surgical alteration of an animal, and that includes spay and neuter. I was told at one time (by a resident of Sweden) that spay and neuter was even ILLEGAL in Sweden, but I was unable to find any online cites confirming that right now, so perhaps that has changed. Still, in some areas of the world, the culture is very much NOT in favor of spay/neuter (nor of excessive breeding) so once again, there really is no clearcut “right” or “wrong” answer. (And my intention here is not to get into a discussion over whether or not there should be mandatory s/n of pet quality animals, but just to present the fact that there are responsible individuals who come down on both sides of the question.)
If deciding WHAT the “right” answers is so hard, how about deciding WHO gets to decide. The AKC, right?
Not so fast. Although the best known registry in the United States, the AKC is not the only one out there. There are quite a few registries out there. Some - like the UKC - are even OLDER than the AKC even though not as well known. And some have less than stellar reputations - having been set up for the sole purpose of issuing “registrations” to pet-store puppies bought by hapless owners. And there are single-breed registries - every bit as careful about the integrity of their stud book as the most well-known registry you can imagine, but who have - for one reason or another - made the choice not to ally themselves with any of the all-breed registries but rather, continue to stand alone in protecting the integrity of their breed.
So - which one of these gets to be assigned to “officially” tell all the others what is “right” and what is “wrong” and have the honor of issuing (or NOT issuing) the “official” Breeders Seal of Approval”?
Things are rarely all that clearcut when it comes to the “right” way to breed animals, just as things are rarely all that clearcut when it comes to the “right” way to raise children or pretty much anything else that impinges on the endless variability inherent in living things.
But if you’re gonna make someone “The Decider Guy” and require everyone else to be subject to the rulings that follow, then these are all the kinds of questions that need to be asked and thought through - ALL the way through - first.
Comment by The OTHER Pat — May 7, 2007 @ 5:23 am
Pat — I agree with you regarding the ramifications of who set the standards and who gets to decide.
But that is being done now. People are admonished to only get puppies from reputable breeders and avoid backyard breeders. So how do I know who is a reputable breeder and who is a backyard breeder? Perhaps I click on the “clueless backyard breeders” link in the article above.
That article already gives standards for breeders, but leaves it up to the buyer to determine if a breeder meets the standards. So let’s go through those standards one by one:
1) Motive. There is no way for the average purchaser to tell the breeder’s motive. Even clueless backyard breeders will have enough of a clue to tell you their motive is serious concern for the breed, and they will screen buyers (even if everyone manages to pass the screen).
2) Explanation of breeding plans. Again, there is no way for the average purchaser to evaluate. If the breeder throughs in a couple of buzzwords, pulls out a book and some magazine articles, they will exceed the knowledge of the average buyer. Anything an average buyer can learn in 5 months, a breeder can learn too.
3) Certification of tests for genetic problems. Anyone can produce certification of anything (including that their wheat gluten is free of melamine). The average buyer has no way of judging if the certification is from a real, junk, or forged (and there is no known agency like UL, BBB, or AKC to double check). Even if the breeder produces x-rays, the average buyer doesn’t know how to read an x-ray.
4) Contractual guarantee to deal with genetic problems. Again, everyone produces contractual guarantees. Even pet stores produce contractual guarantees. This does not differentiate responsible breeders from backyard breeders.
5) Loves the breed and can talk about it. Again, this does not differentiate responsible breeders from backyard breeders.
6) Investment in dog equipment and sanitary environment. Short of squalor and rats running around, the average person doesn’t have the experience to determine if an environment is sanitary. Regarding ownership of equipment, the typical owner is able to see if the breeder has equipment like a kennel run or a grooming table.
7) Belongs to breed club and shows dogs. The average buyer can verify if the breeder is a member of a breed club.
8) Shows litter in sanitary environment and can explain difference between show dogs and pets. See comments on standards 2 and 6.
9) Expensive and doesn’t advertise. The “no advertise” rule is sort of duplicitous, since the breeders approved by the local breed club do in fact advertise by being placed on the list of club recommended breeders. And the AKC has recommendations for local clubs on how to advertise their breeder referral program.
10) Will take puppy back and will help with training. Everyone will take a puppy back, but they won’t refund your money. It is actually a great profit opportunity for people in it for the money, since they get to sell the puppy again. Regarding help with training: does anyone do this. I have a tough time imagining that the “reputable breeders” who won’t even return phone calls will provide more help with training other than giving you a book or recommending a trainer.
So with this entire list of standards, really only two (a) potentially differentiate between reputable breeders and backyard breeders, and (b) are verifiable by the average person. Those two standards are owning equipment and belonging to a local breed club.
So back to your question of who sets standards and who decides, the local breed clubs already do that by granting or denying membership. What I am suggesting is that the AKC create real standards (even if they are around basic veterinary and sanitary care), and use its expertise to verify and certify.
Then a buyer can contact the AKC and find out if a breeder meets the standards (even if the breeder isn’t interested in joining the local breed club).
Comment by Mike — May 7, 2007 @ 6:56 am
Pat — my comments are more directed to the “backyard breeders”, small volume breeders with less than 3 breeding females, producing 1 to 2 litters per year. The are more than willing to meet with potential owners and do everything that a “reputable breeder” will do. For the average person, there is no way to differentiate backyard breeders from reputable breeders, or determine which actually care for the health of the dogs.
Sure there are ways for the average person to differentiate responsible breeders from backyard breeders; it just takes doing a little homework.
1. Backyard breeders are orders of magnitude more likely to own both parents.
2. Backyard breeders won’t have paid for the genetic and health testing appropriate for the breed, or take any other steps to ensure that they’re not breeding two carriers of a known defect of the breed. (For instance, you probably don’t want to buy a poodle from someone who doesn’t Optigen test their dogs.)
3. Backyard breeders don’t show their dogs, or take part in other competitions appropriate to the breed (obedience, field trials, earth trials, etc.)
4. Backyard breeders won’t be able to answer the question, “Why did you choose to breed these two dogs?”—or rather, they’ll think “Because they’re both such sweet dogs!” is an adequate and intelligent answer.
5. Responsible breeders will have lots of questions for YOU.
6. Responsible breeders will have a contract that says, among other things, that if for ANY reason you cannot keep the dog, it MUST go back to them. The contract I signed a month and a half ago also says I have to send pictures—so that she can see how my dog is doing. (I suspect the ubiquity of digitial cameras is going to make that provision more common.)
These signs of a responsible breeder vs. a backyard breeder are not hard to find out, nor are the major health and genetic weaknesses of any give breed. You just need to approach the purchase of a dog or cat (a living being that you’ll have for 10 to 20 years) with the same seriousness you approach buying a car (an inanimate object that you’ll start thinking about replacing after five years or so.
Comment by Lis — May 7, 2007 @ 7:17 am
3) Certification of tests for genetic problems. Anyone can produce certification of anything (including that their wheat gluten is free of melamine). The average buyer has no way of judging if the certification is from a real, junk, or forged (and there is no known agency like UL, BBB, or AKC to double check). Even if the breeder produces x-rays, the average buyer doesn’t know how to read an x-ray.
Optigen and other testing/certification agencies will tell you if they issued that certificate to that breeder for that dog. You can take the x-rays to a vet to get them read.
Why, yes, this is a bit more work.
7) Belongs to breed club and shows dogs. The average buyer can verify if the breeder is a member of a breed club.
The average buyer can also verify if the breeder is not just showing, but winning. There should be championships in the first two generations (parents and grandparents.) This is fairly easy to check.
10) Will take puppy back and will help with training. Everyone will take a puppy back, but they won’t refund your money. It is actually a great profit opportunity for people in it for the money, since they get to sell the puppy again.
I adopted a returned dog. I paid the cost of shipping the dog from the original buyer back to the breeder. Tough to see the additional profit to the breeder in that transaction. Plus, the breeder now has to either provide the original buyer with a replacement puppy, or refund the money.
Why, yes, that is one of the differences between a responsible breeder and a backyard breeder.
Regarding help with training: does anyone do this. I have a tough time imagining that the “reputable breeders” who won’t even return phone calls will provide more help with training other than giving you a book or recommending a trainer.
If you mean, come down and actually help hands-on with training, no, not that I’m aware of, but Addy’s breeder and my Maine Coon’s breeder have been extremely helpful in answering questions and making suggestions when I’ve run into behavioral issues. My sister has found her dog’s breeder helpful as well.
Comment by Lis — May 7, 2007 @ 7:32 am
Lis —
When my wife and I were looking for a westie several years ago, we contacted a breeder in NJ who was referred by a friend of a friend. This breeder seemed to do everything right. She had test certificates from her vet (for all I know, the vet could have been her brother-in-law); she showed me x-rays (I didn’t ask if I could take the x-rays to my vet); she showed me the mother of the puppies and where they lived; she said she couldn’t show the father since she didn’t own him, but she gave me the name of the father’s owner.
The only red flag is she didn’t belong to the local AKC westie club, and she didn’t show her dogs. Her explanation was that the AKC was more interested in physical characteristics rather than temperment. Her dogs didn’t meet the breed standard for ear placement, and therefore were not championship quality. But they were excellent temperment for pets.
When we later went to an event run by our local westie club, we asked about this breeder. A club officer told us to stay away from this breeder since she was a backyard breeder who did not properly care for her dogs. We were told that the only reputable breeders in NJ were the five breeders who were members of the Westie Club.
Now I have no way of knowing if that is true. The non-club breeder seemed to be caring, but I have no way of really knowing. Maybe the Westie Club officers called her a backyard breeder only because her dog had it’s ears too far apart.
(Lis, regarding your breeder: You say they are a reputable breeder, but you also said that paid for shipping the dog back to the breeder. I was under the impression that reputable breeders only dealt with owners who were local enough so the breeder could meet the owners and check on the care of the dog if necessary. Paying for shipping sounds like your breeder sold dogs non-locally. Isn’t that a red flag?)
Comment by Mike — May 7, 2007 @ 8:19 am
One other comment about the nice backyard breeder:
My wife and I eventually decided to adopt a westie from a local rescue shelter, and we are very happy we did. We’ve given a nice home to a great dog who needed a home.
When we are out with our dog, we occassionally run into other westies with their ears too far apart. In talking to their owners, we discover that they got their dogs from the breeder that the local westie club told us to stay away from. The owners always tell us that the dogs are healthy, friendly, and great members of their families. But they do look a little funny with their ears too far apart.
Comment by Mike — May 7, 2007 @ 8:30 am
Mike, it’d bother me that she admits she’s not breeding to the standard because she doesn’t care about it (rather than disagreeing with it in some specific way, like Siamese lovers who think the Siamese should have round heads and be the healthy, muscular animals they were forty years ago), but assuming the vet isn’t her brother-in-law and she’d let you take the x-rays to your vet if you’d asked, it sounds like she might be doing everything right and be safe if what you want is strictly a pet. The problem, though, is that this breeder and a few others might be fine, but if they’re not really careful who they sell their puppies too, the end result will be a line of Westies that deteriorates over time, with no third parties looking at them and judging the quality of the breeding stock. All puppies are cute; all puppies capture the hearts of dog lovers, and even tug on the heartstrings of people who don’t love dogs. The less partial judgments of judges and other breeders are valuable.
(Lis, regarding your breeder: You say they are a reputable breeder, but you also said that paid for shipping the dog back to the breeder. I was under the impression that reputable breeders only dealt with owners who were local enough so the breeder could meet the owners and check on the care of the dog if necessary. Paying for shipping sounds like your breeder sold dogs non-locally. Isn’t that a red flag?)
Responsible breeders want to be able to check up on the care of the dog. But people active in the show world all go to the same shows over a wide swath of the country, and they all know each other. The original buyer is active in showing and also active in dog agility; the breeder and the buyer know a lot of the same people, some much closer to the buyer geographically. And in a breed that’s not tremendously common (most popular of the hairless breeds!:)), there’d be unhealthy inbreeding if there weren’t some exchange of dogs over some distance. So, yes, she did have ways of checking up on the well-being of the dog, depsite the distance being great enough to justify a (fairly short) plane ride for her return.
But when she was looking to place the same animal as a pet, it was a lot more important to her to place her within comfortable driving distance, because a pet owner wouldn’t be competing in shows and getting the dog seen by mutual acquaintances on a regular basis.
And even so, she perked up a lot and got more receptive when I asked whether Addy might be interested in doing agility.:)
Does that clarify things a bit?
Comment by Lis — May 7, 2007 @ 9:01 am
Lis — The “nice backyard breeder” required that owners spay/neuter their dogs, and send her a copy of the vet certification that it was done, so she is unlikely creating a line of westies with their ears too far apart.
But back to my original point, for the millions of Americans who just want a pet, and not a champion show dog, there is really no way for them to assess breeders like this woman. There is no way for the average person to know if a breeder is responsible on the truely important stuff: health, well-being, sanitary conditions, and avoiding genetic diseases.
This is where the AKC needs to step up and take a leadership role. (And I point to the AKC because they have been part of the problem by creating demand for pure-bred dogs and creating breed standard, and I point to them because they are really the only ones in a position to take a leadership role.)
But I understand that taking a leadership role in breeding of pets will not sit well with a lot of AKC members who are more interested in the sport and less interested in animal welfare.
Comment by Mike — May 7, 2007 @ 9:18 am
Mike, yes, there is a way for the average person to assess breeders like this woman. It’s not that hard to find out what the genetic weaknesses of a particular breed are; it’s not that hard to find out what the appropriate health testing is; it’s not that hard to say “I want to have my own veterinarian look at this.” It’s not that hard to visit a breeder and see that the dogs are living with the family rather than in kennels separate from the family (or not); it’s not that hard to see if normal standards of cleanliness exist (or not, or if the house looks suspiciously spotless for a place that has dogs) when you make that visit.
It’s a little harder to walk away from a cute puppy when the answers aren’t right, but just as with buying a car, the time to fall in love is after you take it home.
We are not talking about rocket science; we are talking about understanding the risks involved in buying a live animal, and doing a modicum of research and taking a modicum of care—just like with any other major purchase.
And yes, the AKC could be doing more, but unfortunately it gets registration fees from puppy millers and backyard breeders in far larger numbers than it does from responsible breeders (funny thing about that.) Some breed clubs do do a lot more; others don’t. BUT, if you take the time to go to shows, talk to breeders and exhibitors, and get to know people by the sneaky underhanded trick of asking them to tell you about their breed, you can learn an awful lot—about the breed, and about who in the breed is respected and who is not, and why.
You can even learn enough to make a half-way knowledgable assessment of the risks and benefits of dealing with that byb who does do health tests but doesn’t show, do earth trials, or belong to the local Westie club.
Comment by Lis — May 7, 2007 @ 10:08 am